The Huddle - Episode 216. The Jobs We Should Have Walked Away From
Most contractors have at least one job they knew, somewhere in the back of their mind, they probably shouldn't have taken.
Maybe the expectations were unrealistic from the beginning. Maybe the scope kept changing, the numbers weren't right, or the red flags started showing up before the work ever did. Sometimes you take the job anyway, and those are often the projects that teach you the most.
In this episode of The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose share their experiences with jobs they should have walked away from, with fellow Huddle host Jorge Orta jumping into part of the conversation as well. They talk about recognizing warning signs earlier, trusting your gut, setting better boundaries, and understanding that not every opportunity is actually good for your business.
Learning when to say "no" can take years. But once you understand the real cost of the wrong project, walking away starts to look a lot less like losing work and a lot more like protecting your time, reputation, and business.
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What is up team? Welcome back to the huddle, the number one podcast in flooring. We're here every week to help
you guys gain forward progress in your career. Simply put, we're here to help you win. Welcome to all the new viewers.
And welcome, welcome, welcome everybody. And what's up, fellas? Welcome to my my
homies in Michigan. What's going on, brother? Welcome to your TED talk.
Yeah, here's my TED talk for the day. I don't know. This doesn't even uh doesn't even qualify for a TED talk. This is
just going to be fun. Hopefully, we get some some uh comments going and uh cuz
today's topic everybody is jobs we should have walked away from. And I know
that everybody has a job that they wish they would have walked away from, at
least one. And if you've been doing it for for uh more than a couple of years,
you probably have a few.
Today's um sponsors is uh Pro Installer Magazine. If you guys want to stay up to
date about, you know, installation techniques, just news that matters to the installer pro installer magazine's a
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have them send you come to your inbox every day. It's nice and easy and simple. um good way just to kind of stay
up to date and stay in um stay in the know about what's going on
in the installer world. Um the other
sponsor for the day is Street Tap Street Tap the VTI.
uh if you are uh an installer and you want to uh you know stand out from the
crowd, you want to stand out from all the uh weekend warriors so to speak that
are going to be coming into our business and grows soon. um you know, you're
going to have to have a way to really separate yourself. And just being able to show your installer profile, uh
verified by a third party is a great way to add credibility and reputation to
yourself when you're trying to sell your jobs and sell your service. So, uh want to thank uh everybody who is coming on
board as ambassadors for Trade Tap. I really appreciate everybody uh and the
interest surrounding that. We'll be getting swag packs out and and uh badges
going for our ambassador group. So, thank you so much. There's a few select of you that will also uh be getting
badges, but um we're going to we're trying to test out if the badge is a uh
if you're going to use it. And if you are going to use it, we're going to get them for everybody. So, welcome to Trade
Tap. Become a leader in the trades as the QR code there. Scan that. Go get your VTI started. All right. All that
housekeeping out of the way. I could talk about Trade Tap all day, but um this podcast is
uh blessing back to you, Robert. Revelation Flooring Group LLC just
finished 75,000 square foot of VCT. Well, I love and do not uh
do not want to do 75,000 feet of VCT anymore, but uh how I hope it Yeah, I was going to say
the Cherry fingertips will uh will get you on the old slide and glide for the VCT.
I'm assuming that's a Target. They're doing a lot of Targets right now and or
maybe a grocery store or something like that. Uh feel free to comment Robert if
if that is the doing VCT in a lot of schools again.
You know we've seen some quartz but not back to VCT. So a similar looking product but
obviously much more dense uh way higher PSI.
I am seeing schools move away from LVT. Uh they want something they can kind of
wax and maintain. Lowmaintenance floors don't does not equal what they thought
it said as no maintenance floors. Not no maintenance. Right. They want they want something
that they don't have to retach people how to take care of. Oh, it was an elementary school. It was an elementary.
All right. McGomery County, Maryland. Up in our boy Rollins neck of the woods up there in Maryland.
Well, I hope the job went great for you. If you have a picture, you can share that in the chat as well. I think that
would be awesome. All right. Well, I'm I'm not going to presume here, Robert, that that's one of the jobs you wish you
would have walked away from, but today's topic is just that, jobs we wish or should have walked away from. Uh I'm
hoping for a lot of uh of uh
participants in the comments because this is uh you know I don't think any one of us uh want to
mention a bunch of jobs. Um I I know there's some of our clients that watch
this and uh can't say too many things. So I'll keep it somewhat brief or
somewhat uh am what do you say? Incognito, incognito, ambiguous.
Um, all right. What about if there was um you used to
work for a company and every single job with one project manager was one of those jobs that you just you wish you
never stepped foot on. We have one now. Project manager or job?
Both. that uh we've got a client and he's just
one of those um clients that man it's hard to it's like every everything's an
emergency. Uh granted we could have done a little better on our communication,
but uh it is uh it is tough to
scramble in just a few days on an out ofthe- blue punch list that that kind of
hit you and then it's like we need this done within seven days. And most
commercial contracts do say 7 days, but that's usually in the course of the job,
not after they've walked it, months after you're done. And you don't expect
it. You don't expect it. And it just comes out of the blue. Hey, you got a punch list. Here it is. Go get this
done. We need it done this week. Like, okay. Something that installers don't see
either, right? is that it's um they're like I finished this over a year ago, but for for the person that has the
contract, it's not until the completion of that project where that really the completion of that warranty,
right? Yeah. Cuz a lot of the clients, at least ours, they do a one-year walk and then a
year later you get a punch list. Oh, you know, don't tell anyone over here that
they'll do a one year they'll do a one-year warranty walk and just make sure and some of the stuff is chargeable
things. They got scratches or whatever and we're like, "Hey, that's not a punch list. That's a warranty item." And we're
h or not a warranty item or a punch list item. That is a, you know, a repair and
we're happy to do the repair, but um, you know, let's call it what it is. You
scratched the floor. Yeah. Nothing our installer nor the manufacturer could have done would keep
uh that from happening.
There you go. They they might have met already.
Well, it sounds like Rand uh said you should come by. All right.
So, what you got? What you got? What? What you got? What you got? You know what? Who's gonna be the brave one
to to to get this party started? Well,
without throwing any hold on, let's let's backtrack now. Are
we gonna are we going to approach this like ones that we started we approached
like I have a feeling that we don't want to do this, but we're going to take the
project anyway because we're low. all-encompassing because there's Yeah, it really is.
On all sides really. Okay. So, let's uh how about I just cuz there's plenty of them that I knew I
shouldn't have took when I was going into it or at least but I thought somehow I I would be okay and then at
the end of the day it's like uh where did that profit go? Right. We did a project a very long time ago
for a family member for family members in-laws
and I went in and that went in pretty cheap. I had four guys coming in with me. We did it as like an emergency
project, a living room, some commercial carpet in a residential setting. And I did not want to do it, but I was like,
you know what? I want to help family out, make them look good. Did it upon completion, give them the
invoice of a very, very, very cheap price. And they complained about it.
Um, they're like, "Whoa, that's expensive." I'm like, "Brother, I just charged you $250 for a
full day's worth of work for four people. What do you mean that's expensive?"
And I had to get mad. And I was like, "I will cut the center of this room out
right now and take it with He's like, I'll cut you." And I will take this.
There was just a post on Facebook about uh ask someone was asking if anyone has
ever repo a job. But I had to like we had a job uh that I have to not
mention the name of last week where uh they're wanting to replace some flooring
that we think because of a I won't get into details, but the floor looks
awesome and they want to replace it for a a layout thing that doesn't match the
print exactly. And I'm like, well, you're kind of opening yourself up. I'm going to pull a
tape measure out and measure every every wall, every ceiling height, every if
it's out because this is out like it's not off center or out of whack a half
inch. It's just this random pattern doesn't match up the way they thought it
should. And I'm like, it's a random pattern. Well, the picture shows XYZ.
Anyway, long story short, they were like, "Well," they were telling uh one of our guys, um, "Well, we'll, um, we're
not going to pay that August invoice until you get this replaced." And I was
like, "Send our guys over and just pull all the materials off. Some of it's 12,
14 weeks lead time, bring it back to the office, and just tell them to sue us.
like we'll follow mechanics lean for what we have and they can fight that. Anyway, that was that was uh not the way
obviously it went, but it was just one of those gut reactions like cuz you brought up repo. I was like maybe we
just go pull all the materials and call it good. No, no.
Contractually in construction, you're not allowed to do that. So, let me be clear. We didn't do it. It was just a
guy talking, locker locker room talk kind of stuff. But it doesn't mean you don't want to sometimes.
Yeah. Yeah. But long story short, after after that cheap install to kind of help out, you know,
the family member said, "Hey, so do I get a finder fee?"
I did a residential job once and uh so I'll say um you're a little
off the first comment there. Let him win. Let him win. Let him win. Let him take the W. But uh
this almost is really the run me on the whole residential side of things. So, we
had way back in O2 a mobile showroom long before it was a a popular way of of
selling to the homeowner. We built out a to a 8ft box truck with a full showroom
in it. We could pull materials down. They could get on the lift. We can lift them up and they can look around.
Anyway, I may have told this story before, but I had a a customer.
Well, it shows you how how bad it damaged me, but
her carpet didn't come in the day that she expected
and uh we hadn't yet scheduled. We had only told her the day and so she assumed
the next day we were going to get it done and we didn't. We just was letting
her know her carpet was coming in and she took vacation and all this stuff
for the rest of the week, Wednesday on and I was like, I do not have you
scheduled and I can't get to you till next Thursday and it's only a two-day job. Oh my god. She wanted me to pay for
her lost vacation time. like it was this whole deal
um that left me like why in the world am I in even trying to do residential work
man I can't connect with the the that that side of the business well enough
it's like cuz I'm like we didn't tell you to do it so we just being
communicative the way we have to be in commercial hey your materials are in they in commercial construction they
know unless Unless you have a pre-arranged schedule. Yeah. That means like, okay, the materials are in. Let's get it
scheduled. When can you get to it? That kind of thing. Not, oh, well, that means you're going to be here tomorrow to
install it, right? And let me go ahead and go ahead and take my vacation time. And
I mean, it was it I didn't even I was so caught off guard because it was like
that morning, if I remember right, was like, "Where are your guys?" I'm like, "Well,
they're not I don't have your job scheduled yet. I was just letting you know the carpets's in." And it turned
into this whole ordeal. I think we need to apologize in advance
because a lot of these are probably going to be residential projects.
But I do want to point out something right here. Romeo says that he wants to share that the CTI by CTEF test was a
success. He's got four new CTI with him. That makes six total for his team. And
all seven part participants that were there passed. Wow.
That's fantastic, bro. That's probably unheard of to be honest with you. Well, I I don't Yeah, that's not the
That's one of the That would be the maybe one of the highest I'd heard of talking to CTEF about like their passing
rate of that test. So kudos to Romero.
Dude is a stud. If you're down in I think he's in Plano, Texas. If you need
tile done down in Plano, that is your guy. I think his company is um I know
it. Hold on. Or I'll look it up because I want to give him a plug. Uh but the
the dude is committed to making sure that they're
um and he'll probably star tile surfaces. I got it.
um making sure that the crews are actually trained and he knows how
important it is to have highquality people and to actually have uh you know
trained installers on his projects. It makes his I would imagine it makes his life a lot easier and his cells uh his
cells should be you know through the roof. Did I get that right? Is it star tile uh surfaces? Is that right there?
Romero out of Plano. He says he is out of Plano and uh that
most of his work is residential and he's definitely has some headaches with clients
cuz uh the kind of like the story that you were just saying reminded me of a guy of of a person that he was just
dealing with not too long ago where he was like she's like, "Okay, it's
approved. I'll see you tomorrow. We we still have to order material. Like
it was it was like it was horrible. Do you usually do uh
do you usually do the residential side, Jose? Yeah, Daniel doesn't have the patience
to to deal with people. I I mean it's he he does. Yes and no, right?
But he doesn't. It's just I have the tendency to attract people who need help being walked
through a lot, but they know a lot. They just they need reassurance and um
I can connect with them uh pretty pretty quick and easily. I I I find their language and I'm able to to meet them on
their plane so that way they understand. Hm.
Well, I've always thought you and I thought alike, but not in that case. I don't even like
your brother. Jeez. I have a hard time and I I want to be good at it. So, I'm
not I'm not like I know dogging on it. I want to be good at it, but I get frustrated.
Yeah, we're commercial, right? So I tell people I say like Jose has the patience to you know lead
them in a direction. With me I'm in that commercial mindset. It's like hey I already sent you this quote like yes or
no instead of like hey what else can we do for you? And the crazy thing is is that
sometimes on the commercial side I still have to do that but it's I don't know I just find it easier.
Well it just come it's more structured. There's no doubt. And that's the thing, it's like more
structured feeling when it's um in the commercial world like you you kind of
know there there's still obviously jobs that are not
um there are still jobs that don't run the
way that you most commercial jobs, but in general, you know, you're going to, you know, bid a project. You're going to
get if you get the project, you're going to start submitts. You're going to get return submitts. You're going to make
any adjustments, send any change orders or RFIs based off those. And then like
it's kind of a systematic approach. But when you sell to a homeowner, and kudos
to all you who are greatly successful at that. I know a lot of our audience is,
and um I mean, you're just you got a great skill set to be able to do that.
But um the
there's no structure around it. It's like you're selling even like selling a car is got structure
around it. But selling flooring in someone's house, you got to have Jose's mind, I guess. Like this look
like I'll work through this. I'll make you happy by doing this, that, and the other or whatever. Here's the easy thing. I just do this
commercial. It's like, I sent you everything you need. Do you understand it or do you do you need clarification?
Right? Residential is like, hey, I sent you all the information uh pertaining to your material. I just want to make sure
that you understand everything, but if you need if you need any clarification or have any questions, please feel free
to reach out. That's the only difference. It's just robotic monotone
to I care. Let me know what I can do. We care. We just don't have to like show
it as much, right? I mean, I care, but uh emails and conversations for residential
versus commercial are You're completely different, aren't they? They are different.
Robert says, uh, he likes our prony treadman video. He just got one. You're
you're going to love it, man. Oh, yeah. You are. 60 treads to do at a naval base in uh King George, Virginia
on September 11th. Oh, never forget.
It's my voice though, you guys. It is my voice for the residential, right?
Okay, that being said, I mean, surely still there's the ones that you're like I'll go I'm I'll tell you one that I did
and it's more of a customer um I I found a lot of the jobs that I
would apply to this topic saying um you know that I wish I would have not gotten
essentially or not done have the the common denominator is the
customer's expectations and that being either mismanaged by our
team or being mismanaged by the general contractor or something in that arena.
But, you know,
we've had a few um projects, but I did one at Whiteman Air Force Base several
years ago. And you want to talk about it was a one of the hardest jobs that we
ever did. It was a bunch of mosaic bathrooms that was had some pattern
mosaic uh hexagon mosaic tile floor and Wayne's coat and everything
was and it was a remodel at that. So hexagon mosaic on a remodel.
every floor should have been leveled uh ground and leveled. And
I think I've gotten past this with most general contractors that like demo the
easy part and leave the thin set or they leave the glue when they demo carpet or
vinyl and they're like, "Well, that's just floor prep." No, that is part of the tile system or that's part of the
flooring system that you you don't get to just demo the easiest part and then give me the crappy part and tell me
that's floor prep. Um, but that's how that was dealt with. And this was probably 20-ish years ago.
Um, and it was it every every bathroom took
twice as long as we thought it would on our initial kind of let ideas uh from a
schedule. And this wasn't I'll give the contractor some kudos. Uh, they didn't
dictate the schedule to us. They just we had a meeting and talked about it and I was doing some averaging and stuff and
at the end of the day, man, I got I got we got roasted on that job. But it wasn't just that you the worst jobs to
me that I wish I wouldn't have took are not just jobs you don't make money or the amount of profit that you feel like
you should have for the the project but that along with on top of that it was
just constant pressure constant where your guys you only have six guys here
you're you're I mean you had 10 yesterday and you got six today.
Like just every day it was constant pressure on schedule and getting done
and more guys, more guys, more guys, more guys. And I'm like, I can't send
you just anybody on this install. I just can't. He just reminded me about
I can't just send you any tile guy that's done 12 x 12 tile in his life.
You know, this is a hexagon mosaic with a pattern and they want the pattern to
match because it was just basically two walls and a door wall.
So, it had to match all the way and so it had to match this whole way and this way the pattern in the the the
uh mosaic. It was a tough Hey, Jose would have probably or um Romero
probably would have hated that though. Jose Romero, he would have quite hated.
Rollins says that he learned early on working with uh
GM or home. He means GC's or homeowners that he needs to carry a very big toothbrush
from kissing behinds.
Trent over here on LinkedIn says he had a homeowner question the grout depth on chiseled ed porcelain one time. They
wanted a full redo. GC wouldn't stand behind him. So, he had the NTCA write a
letter for him that got everything dropped. Uh he got paid and he says that you know
short version if nothing is specified industry standard is installers choice.
So that's that's I'm glad a time or two where we've had that too,
right? Where it's like oh my goodness they they walk through and they're like why'd you do it like this? And it's like well this is how we always do it. Well,
I wanted it like this. Where was that in the paperwork? I had that just brought up one. Um, and
this is a more recent job. It was a restaurant. You guys probably know, so don't say too much, but uh they freaking
had Corey tile and uh the the it was Corey so like Corey
textures or Corey natural. those the the stamped rough quarry like the lowgrade
core uh 3/8 grout joints with epoxy I IG so
yeah epoxy grout and then and then expected it to be level with the surface
when the edges of the quarry tile is it's eased edge it's not like your
square 6x6 your actual your good quarry tile I say good quarry tile I don't know if there's such thing, but at least it's
more square when it's the regular Corey tile and it's cut and it's a square edge as opposed to like the stamped Corey
tile where you can still see where the machine stamped it, you know, and then it gets baked and
then it comes out the other end and they put it in a box. There's like no cutting of it or anything. And they I begged
them to move to 316 or smaller even, but 3/16. And 3/8 was on the drawings and
that's what it was. And then the um operator of the restaurant was like, "We
can't squeegee this." And it was a long ordeal. I was like, "Dude, I can't I I
can't help you." Like, "How do you get Yeah. Get get use them up. I I don't
know what to say. 38 grout joints was what we were forced to use on epoxy car
epoxy. We tried talking them out of it. I did too. Heavy duty tried.
We could have got them fuller with 316, but it is hard as hell if you work with epoxy. You know,
it's hard as helloxy to stay full in the joint when you're
cleaning as well. uh especially IIEG, which is like the kitchen version of of
grout, you know, of epoxy. Uh it was incredibly difficult to get it to the
level that we did. And we got it right to the bottom of the curve of the eased edge. I
mean, that's the best we could get it. And if you try to go in and fill them fuller, you you're just opening up a a
problem. Like you'd have to And it was hard as hell because of the
size. So anyway, that that one I probably could have skipped as well.
Robert said he did 65,000 yards of carpet tile at NASA headquarters, all
modular lift and it only paid $12 a yard.
You said that's so sad. Is it Is it uh Well, if it's if that doesn't include demo, that's not bad for
our area. I'm not sure that it it would uh cover working at NASA,
right? The the all the parameters around that like working on the Air Force bases.
Romeo says he invested in big grinders with Hepac and build the build the customer.
Oh, that's for Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, I I agree. There's ways to to get
the of course this is 20 maybe 20 years ago. 18 20 years ago if you're referring
to the uh my Whiteitman Air Force Base project, but you know,
even it was like our one of our first really
big jobs and especially tile jobs and
it should have been handled better on our side. like we should have like negot
forceful and not just taken the the beating from the GC that um that uh it
was our job to deal with the the uh the gra the uh old thin set that was left.
I think that's that's what one thing I always talk about on the the project walks, the job walks, is who is doing
the adhesive removal? Who is doing the thin set removal? Because that needs to be talked about now so you're not
surprised later. Yep. Or even on flash coat projects,
who's doing the drywall? These are the expectations. Making sure making sure it's good all the way down.
Yep. Who's doing who's putting up the wall protection or FRP or Wayne's coat? like who's doing all that. These are
things that you need to know as well, especially if it's going to be over uh
the width of the panel. You know, if it's going to be a 4 foot four, 4 foot6 height, what are they spacing the bottom
with? Make sure you have material for that. Things like that. Um so, let me add to
to the topic, right? And Daniel says in the beginning where it's more people
than it is projects because I'm I'm thinking about all the projects that I did not want to be on anymore and we
didn't want to do um and walk away from but those are the
ones that were learning moments and made us add
more literature or learn to say we're not interested when the question came
up. Um and some of them were labor only. uh the majority of the bad ones that we
had was labor only early on in our careers. Uh and I tell you what, that's
we learned how to read or look at the fine print and make sure that we understood the schedule that they're trying to lay out for us and let and
voice our concerns right away. Like, I'm sorry, but that schedule that you
have is this ridiculous. like I don't think you
understand how many moving parts are involved in that but that's probably not going to happen.
Yeah. If you do commercial work I mean you do one thing we're just like that
we're cognizant of is voice your opinion about like the schedule. Don't don't let
it just get kind of shoved down your throat. Um there's plenty of times where
that has saved us uh where we're like no that what you're asking for is
impossible. That cannot be done. We cannot do it that way. Uh, and these are
the reasons. And then of course, you know, all hell breaks loose later on
the project and you're glad that you put your two cents in on the schedule, even if they didn't actually change the
schedule, which a lot of times a good thing is is that they will change the schedule, but sometimes they don't and
they just are like, "Well, you got to figure it out. That's all the time I have aotted." And for your contract, we
run the schedule and you have to make it work. I'm like, "Okay, well that's just
fine, but you still can't put 30 gallons of gas in a 20- gallallon tank. I don't know."
There was um a project that that we're let me not say it like that. We've
assisted on some projects, some more recently than others, where an expectation was set or a deadline was
set and due to unforeseen circumstances,
nothing has been getting done for a little bit. So, upon initial walkthrough,
I was asked, well, what if you throw more people on this project and work over the weekend? Can we have this area?
And I flat out said, first off, we're not going to work over the weekend. right? Like I'm not going to lay that on
my guys last minute. It's not going to happen. Nothing against you. It's just I'm not going to do that. It's going to
mess with team morale. Um the next thing is you say more guys. I said more guys
does not help get the technical work done. And if that's your level of expectation and that's what you're
telling me needs to be done, I'm just going to go ahead and tell you right now, then we're not the people for it because I know that that can't be done
in that amount of time. There's cure times involved. There's layout. There's fixing. And we're picking up the pieces
right now. And if you're not willing to help out and adjust your schedule because we're here to help. We're not
here to assume responsibility of some someone else's scheduling. We're here to
help you get your floors done. If you understand that, then we can work
together. If not, then I appreciate your time and I'm just going to be on my way.
And they just look at me like, "What just happened?"
And can you do that on residential, too? Yes, I do. You can work double time.
Problem is, you only have so many miles on your knees on your body. You only have so many hours a week and you you need some time off, man. Like,
and it's just I get it. Everybody's project is super important, but if if a
client, residential or commercial, is more than willing to put you, your crew, or your body in harm's way to meet a
deadline that is unrealistic. I love a challenge, but I I farewell. I
will see you on the next one if we if we're given another opportunity. So, Robert does say some
pop it up though because I don't want to put companies out there, but he said that that company that he
did that lift job for was tried talking him down on price twice in a week.
Yeah. The um there's another part where he's talking about the uh the the well
the wage scale. I have a a job that we did up out of our Kansas City office
that was on um on a university and the it was Davis Bacon wages and we
we figured we we thought we figured right and we did for the mechanic
like the the lead guy we what we didn't account for uh was I
think it was 5680 or something like that. It was in the
mid to high 50s uh per hour for the the lead guy. The helper got paid only like
a $150 less. Oh yeah, dude. And I was like make more.
Why? Yep. How is that possible? That So they had the tile setter, a tile setter and a
tile uh finisher finisher. The tile finisher, the helper
is what how they categorize it. $2 less.
So my crew didn't want to take any helpers. They're like, they can't produce that kind of I was like, he
goes, we're I'm only bringing them in on grouting days. And so it was nothing but
um and I I guess we we just must have missed that. But you know, word to the
wise if you're bidding uh any jobs on Davis Bacon or on Air Force bases or
anything like that or universities sometimes have them uh if it's a
certified payroll Davis Bacon kind of project, look look for both because yeah, you got to look at everything. And
then not only that is you get if you didn't go through a like approved apprenticeship program, you have to pay
the higher amount regardless. And the reason I was saying it cuz we were working on projects where it was
like that before, right? And it was um I think my checks were more than his and
he was like, "What's going on?" And they were like, "Oh, it's fringe benefits." So we get to subtract that from your um
from your pay. So since he had he was the one that was driving the vehicle and
he was the one that had a company phone, they were able to subtract that out of his pay as a fringe benefit.
I don't think so, but maybe I I don't know.
They have the way that those forms work. So, John says here, um, he just took
off, but he did say that learning to manage expectations help prevent taking too many of these types of bad jobs. And
I think that's somewhat manageable, but as an installer, sometimes you get these bad jobs. Like I was saying earlier,
it's just uh the luck of the draw with some of these project managers, and
it just Yeah, it's hard to tell sometimes. It's hard to tell sometimes. And I tell
you another deal, the the uh the
what he pointing to what he said is sometimes managing expectations can turn a what would be considered a bad job
into a good job. I I think that's the number one thing that that
you got to start out with, even if it's homeowners. So, like that's why um you
know if I was to do residential more I I would like lay it out like we'll order
materials and then when we get materials in our warehouse then we'll call you to schedule and it would have prevented
my scenario um which was one of the last
we still do residential. It's just uh you know by appointment or through a
designer or something like that. It's never like a This was retail residential
replacement stuff, which I we very very very rarely do any residential
replacement. And that was probably that was certainly one of our last jobs before we shut the
old mobile showroom down. So Denise does say this, right? Lack of
planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. If only that was true sometimes.
Well, if only you could get that statement to fit into a contract.
You know what I mean? Because we're often just um
bound by a contract that says certain things and it doesn't the contract doesn't
uh account for the procrastination or whatever on the the project manager or
the GC firm or whatever's part. Romeo says that he uh turned out a job today
where the prep was done by another installer. It was done correctly, but I
just think it wasn't enough for that product, right? And the client did not
want to pay to fix the prep. And I think we've as an installer when they say that
that's one of those things, right, where especially on commercial where it's like we're just turning this thing, we'll have someone come through before you
just come in and install it. And there was a a time where uh we were like, "No, like if someone else is touching that
prep work, I'm not touching it." We've had a few sometimes that happens.
Uh every once in a while we'll have uh guys and we'll have like we had our um
hourly crew do do some prep work just because it was like uh one of them two
days you know their job canled or whatever and there two open days and that was the
easiest place to place in their company and you know nobody wanted to go do the
job after the prep was done and we were like Well, if you see any additional
prep, we'll still pay you for it. And they were like, well, what if it fails? And I'm like,
I I just don't I we need to not do that just because there's too many unknowns,
you know? Right. So, Robert says that, you know, also be mindful of, you know, having to
have your OSHAs for some of these projects as well. And then he just bought the new digital.
He says Sinclair, but it's lester heat weld gun. Are you talking about the jet
A, the smaller one? He can't find a stand that fits around
it because it's square. So, Turbo Tools doesn't sell one, but
Leester sells one of the their own
the stand, but it's the the guide wheel. Oh,
Kevin says, "Prep work." What prep work? What?
And Denise says, "Make sure your contract stipulates any concerns." And sometimes on these big old commercial
projects, you don't uh you can fight a little bit, but it's basically
they're cookie cutter type of stuff. Well, and you get to it's like
inclusions exclusions and so there's still room for stuff to get lost in
between those. Here's what your scope of work is. Here's what we're excluding. And a lot
of times we can get our exclusions put in there, but then there's some scenario that comes up that it's it's
got it falls in the gap of those two. Falls in the gap of under the master
contract. Well, it's just like the the deal I was telling you about with the punch list. I mean, months and months
after we're done and off the job, but our contract does say that any punch list items we have to take care of
within seven days. So, scrambling to get that done is a
tough tough thing, you know. Yeah, we do our best to do that to to remedy any
issues and some some of the let's call it punch list items that right that are
popping up that are class should be classified as repairs. We've kind of
taken on a different approach. Let's try to keep the client happy, do what we can um out of our own pocket without,
you know, charging them for it unless it's ridiculous, right? But it's um
well we yeah you try your best to be a good right partner in the job but man it cannot be
at the complete expense of your finances. Right. Correct. And you know one of the
one of the clients actually just popped back up to go do some more repairs on their home. Um which is something we
didn't do. Right. Somebody else did the the initial install. But I will say that
um my sister probably wants to walk away from more projects that we put her on than us doing, you know, or our guys.
And you know, she did such a bang-up job on the the last retrofit repair that we
did. It was 100% custom because they don't make the tile anymore. It's like a hundred-y old floor. And he was just
like, "You guys are my people now. Can you guys repair this shower?" And we're like,
"I'm sorry it's taking so long to give you a number, but I'm just trying to find out if we can comfortably do it." And he's like, "How about we just
bandaid it, repair it for right now? If everything happens again in a few years, then we just replace it and you guys are
my peeps and you take care of me and I'll make sure that that I reciprocate." And I was just like, "All right, let's
go." like within 20 minutes of sending over, which is not a very high number, but for
the amount of hours I think it's going to take, he was just like, "Approve? Yeah, just come and do it." And I'm like, "All right."
See, because that's the opposite side of the coin where you have the the clients where it's all the questions and then
beating you up on price and all that. And then you have the opposite side where it's like just I trust you. Just
come and take care of me. We had Yeah. those those clients are golden. You know,
they're the the the ones that are tough, I think, from a
client standpoint, at least in commercial, are the ones who it's hard bid job. You're bidding the work. Uh if
if if well, and let me be clear, they don't
they're they don't tell you there there's two scenarios. either they don't
tell you that you're the only one bidding it because they don't want you to know that or they just straight up
tell you it's a bid job and then the discrepancies in the drawings are like, "Well, why didn't you bring this up? Why
didn't you bring that up?" I'm like, "This is it's not my job to design it.
If I'm if I'm doing the the leg work on
all of that, then this needs to be a negotiate. Then I can guide you." But when you're talking about just putting
out numbers, it's bid what's on that paper. I I have to bid what's on the paper and
in the construction document, right? I feel like we're leaving out our
residential guys. All we've done is uh poop on residential and talk about commercial. So, what's our residential?
Jorge says he's always the guy left on the job to do the punch list. Well,
that's because you're they probably think you're the best. the attention to or they or they know
you know how to fix everything. That's the thing. They don't that I know that is a huge thing with installers. It
was with my me when I was uh putting in floors on the daily was being the guy
that had to go back and fix people's stuff, but they wouldn't hire me in the first place to go do the job. Oh, that
would irk me. And we all got to go fix some stuff and
things like that. But when you lose a job and then you get they want to have you come and fix it and it's even worse
when they want to beat you down on price and you're like well I can come out but it's going to cost you you know $300
minimum or something and they're like oh no I mean can't you do it for 50 bucks or something right?
No I can't I can't even start my van for 50 bucks
and it'll take $50 in gas to get to your job. Yeah, that that is uh so what Daniel had
talked about earlier, the project that we walked away from, you know, it and even another recent one too is like,
well, why is it so much money? Well, I have a minimum amount that I have to hit if I'm giving you one or two people,
right? Like I I still got to pay my guys and I still have to run a business to be
profitable. Um, and they just don't understand that. They're like, "Well, I could do it myself for this much money."
Well, feel free to do it. Like I can already tell that this is where we
should part ways. Yeah. The moment somebody says, "Well, I've done a few of these type deals." We
run into it more like owners reps. They'll come through and look at we did a job in a uh it was a city hall and the
owner's rep was a tile installer. He said, "I I
installed tile." And then you ask him like a backsplash and a tub surround
once or whatever. And Jorge, we have a we have a visitor here.
Let's add let's add Jorge to the stream. What's up, brother? What's going on? Spanish News is here.
Breaking news from Jorge. How's it going everyone? What's up, brother?
You got a old one in your hand. You look like you're
No, already finished up. Finished up for the day. Got this uh staircase runners done and I'm I'm back
in action, man. Well, I thought I thought you might be
having a cold one. It just seems like the right surround, right? Well, it's too hot here. It's about 104
degrees. Oh, that's it. Oh, yeah.
There's the last, guys. You do enough people's uh enough other people's punch list, you get to
You get to have a cold brew. You get to go have a cold brew. You have to have one, right? Like, you got to deal with everybody's problems.
Yeah. So, I'm glad all my buddies are out here. Jose Romero. Um I'm surprised
the other Jose and Jesus aren't on here. I think they're not available today. But he's on vacation, bro. He He like works
a week and then takes a week of vacation. like he goes back and forth like that. That must be nice.
I I need to be I need to be one of those installers.
You know, if you travel I used to do I used to travel to do Well, VCT was big
back then. So, we did these Kroger's all over. Sometimes you get stuck in a place where
you don't want to be, but sometimes it is kind of cool to travel uh you know to Florida. Well, this was assessing a job.
Uh, but traveled to Florida to Hollywood Beach and did freaking bunch of work
there for a couple of weeks and you're in Florida. You know, you treat it like a little vacation while you're there.
But you got to travel to do that kind of thing or make time gets off, man.
Once trade time gets, you know, then we can be cruising around the USA.
Yeah, baby. We were uh that's what I'm talking about. We talked about like one day
taking a group of installers and just going from one spot to the other and doing work. We talked about
and videoing remember that videoing the whole process just to show our own little selfpromoted
TV self uh produced TV show. Yeah, I think that it'll still work,
brother. I really do. Yeah, you go to the local area, find the trade tap
uh installers in the area, and you're like, "Yeah, let's team up and do this work." And then you you do a job, and
you go to the next city and the next city and the next city. Yes, sir.
Hey, Bang. I'm always drinking Bang on your deal. You should sponsor us. This is This is free promo every every
episode. Banger. And I'm always drinking those Celsius that somebody introduced me to. Geez,
man. And I wish I never got introduced to that. And I'm always drinking those cervesas.
That's the way to be, right? We're drinking energy drinks at 4:00 and
Jorge is drinking cervvesas. They're probably like, "Man, that Jorge is an alcoholic." But I'm actually not.
They're light beers. They're like super light. So they're like 3 3.8
or something. And then this one's like, it doesn't count as like drinking water. Diet. He's like, I dare
He's like, I I I uh I drink for the taste.
I drink to socialize and network in which most of the people that come out here and they're members. We network. We
talk about business. There's people in the insurance field. There's people in other fields and we kind of just gather
here and talk most of the times which they're waiting for me out there. Uh they're like, "Hey, you know, you're
always working." But I'm, you know, we're networking when we're here. Yeah. 100. You network everywhere you
go. I don't I don't Kevin says that we have to have a negative score with after what he had to
deal with today. Sounds like he must have had to go look at a project from somebody that uh that uh he feels should
be minus below rookie.
Kevin, I gave your we call him handyman last week. No offense to the good handyman out there, but
that was a Dude, we got to do one like that. We I seen a handyman posting on there on some I forget what it was,
social media. It was probably Facebook. I'm a handyman. I can I can do your uh your sheet vinyl. I can do this.
Can do anything. Local. So I we're uh there's this local like Facebook group. I forget the name
of it, but it's for like work. So, someone says, "I got 600 feet of LVP I
need installed. Who who can do it? I'll do it for a dollar." It's just
I'll do it for 75 cents. It's like a list of people are like and it's like roofing, sighting, decks,
construction, flooring, like pools. Yeah. It's just all this stuff on each
one. And I'm like, man, catering. Catering
cater on the side. There there was um a project I went and um
subscribe to Only Fans. You'll get a discount on your construction site. We did a project for the the county over
here, right? And I showed up to the the job walk because you have to be there and you're like it's one of those
mandatory, right? If you're not there at this time, you don't get to come in. You don't get to bid. So, we we all got in
there and I look at the list and it's that's how it was for this one. It was
painting, construction, uh the list goes on, like handymen,
right? And I was the only one where it was like flooring and I was like, "Dang, that means I'm going be high bid
already." You know, you got to walk away. I didn't I I still bid it and they they
went with us. They And I I talked to the guy and he was like, "We kind of had to go with you because you're the only
flooring company. I don't know if I can trust anyone else." This other dude does fences.
Dude, we just were awarded a project because of that. Like,
well, expertise does matter to people if they if they know you're an expert. I mean, that does matter to people.
Uh, just the fact that when you if if
it's this tough thing of somebody saying, "Yes, I can. I'm I'm a Florine
dude or I'm this or that or the other and not really having anything to back
that up at all, then you should be a little skeptical. I don't care if it's a if you you don't hire a non-licensed
plumber or a unlicensed electrician, like that's the kind of their their
barrier of entry. Uh but it also just because they're licensed doesn't mean they're the best plumber or best
electrician. So yeah, that's why uh the VTI and trade tap scoring system is is
uh is there. Thank you, Denise.
We uh we know there's more out there, more people out there that that have
those jobs that uh you know, there was red flags that uh made you think about
walking away. And kudos to Daniel for not walking away because he just let his
expertise do the talking uh on that deal. But that's one red flag I got to
say if you are surrounded by like generalized construction people or
generalized uh you know repair man or whatever or
handyman. That's a tough gig to beat. That's a tough one to beat. You gotta go, you
gotta lean. Void of void of proof. You price is going to win. And so you got to
have some proof whether it's reputation or whatever uh or a scoring system,
either one. Um you know, you got to have some way to set yourself apart and prove
your your value. And sometimes that is calling
manufacturers to the job site. Kevin says he had the opportunity to see a job before it failed and couldn't talk the
installer into doing it right. Read him manufact manufacturing instructions as
well as industry standards and was told he knew better. He lost a little faith in the industry today. Can't help stupid
and stubborn. Charge for it. Yeah, it's tough, man. Uh it's really
tough when the You got to have the GC there too or something. It's tough in those scenarios that he
just pointed out because um there there Ben at Trade Tap always says that we
kind of had two generations of of lost of installers lost that didn't really
have the standardized training. I think that's pretty accurate. And you get
these guys that just for I don't know where their confidence comes from. we run across here. I don't know where it
comes from because mine comes from the certifications and the the training
and the the my industry partnerships and my my dealings with other installers.
That's where my confidence comes from. These guys have confidence like they
legit. This guy like Kevin just described, he knew better. Knew better.
thing. Our confidence is that we know we don't know everything. Yeah, 100%.
That's a great comment. That should be put on a on a sign
somewhere. That's that's that's uh that's the way to be like being teachable.
Yeah. And we're open to taking critique and we're open to Yeah. having somebody tell us, hey, you know,
you're doing it wrong. No problem. Uh but there's some people are like, well, I know you. who I know better than
everyone else in the world. And knowing that we got people out there that we can call for anything, right?
Like I got a call a few weeks ago and uh they're like, "Hey, how much would you charge for, you know, for this?" And I'd
be like, "This is where I'd be." And they're like, "Man, they usually do residential." They're like, "Man, I'm about to lose this bid." And I was like,
"At least you're not gonna get it." And then be like, we're talking about now. It's been been
one of those jobs where you're like, man, I should not have did this. Well, but the audacity of Kevin's
situation is he is one of those guys we talk about when you're talking about having access to somebody who's a real
expert, right? And this dude, whoever he was, he had access to the expert. He had him right there
and he still just was like, "Nah, I'm I know better than that." Kevin went there and was like, "You should be spreading
the glue like this." Nah, I'm good. that I'm still going to be using it this way. I'm going to flat tri it.
Yeah, I don't believe you, brother. You have tattoos. It's like having Steve Waznjak, the
co-founder of Apple, talking to you about how to use your iPhone. You're like, "Nah, I know. I'm good. I know
better." You know what I mean? Like, come on, dude. Humility.
Humility, I think, is where it comes in. And that's where you you know that that trait that trait of humility is what I
think the the really good installers have and they they they learn they have egos still but humility to learn because
I know the good ones learned from someone else. I know Kevin would list guys that he learned from. Jorge can
list guys he learned from. I can tell you guys I learned from that were really really good. Uh not just said they were
good. they were certified guys or they were really uh or that you I the guy
that taught me how to lay uh broadland carpet. Oh, once I started listening um full
disclosure, I I didn't listen real well when I was 19 or 20, but uh you know, he
was a union trained uh guy from way back in the day and his dad owned a flooring
company forever, so he had done it forever. And you know, we we know those
things. What I'm getting at is that guys who just learn from someone else, but
where do the where's the confidence that it's the right way? That's what I don't I don't get,
man. Yeah. For me, for me, I feel that most of those guys that taught me, it opened up even more later on for me to just
self learn just by looking up information on stuff. And at some points
I might even know more than some of the guys that taught me and some of the machines or things that because I
learned how to do something a little bit different than they did and I adapted myself
uh to to be a little bit better to make the work a little bit better. And sometimes I'll tell these guys like I
did this this and this. I changed over this. And they're like what? How did you do that? How'd you even know? Like I'm
glad Chad Chad is able to help me and you know I ask I ask it questions and it
tells me you know what parts are similar that I can use and then I adapted that
into this and now I have this product and they're like damn. Yeah. But you're not going to know unless
somebody brings it out of you. They plant that little seed and you start to grow. Right. Yeah. I I remember sitting through just
a demonstration that uh Robert had done on and just that I was like, "Oh my
goodness, man." I I had such an epiphany out of a a couple of
jobs I had done that I was like, "Yeah, whoa." Is are you talking about the Varden?
Yeah, the Varden. Robert, he's awesome, man. like he was my instructor, him and Jonathan. But, you
know, those guys are they're they're awesome. They're great instructors. Especially, you know, Mr. Varden, he's
he's Robert. He's he's really good. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a ton ton of ton of
guys out there that are are that way. But you got to listen to them. The whole
point of that is like you got Kevin, who to me is one of the the best in the business, sitting there telling you how
to do something and you don't listen. That's crazy to me. That's crazy. But I do want to before we
uh end this episode, I do want to shout out uh the Tai installers that won this uh
regional competition that they had. Oh yeah. So we have uh for LVP Jackson AO and for
carpet Hugo Gutierrez and he's the one that won um I think the wood last time,
right? LVP. I don't remember. Yeah, he won the regional, but he didn't
win the um I don't think he won the uh national. Oh, he's the union guy, right?
Yeah, it's two actually two union guys. So, that's kind of what I was going to get at because you were like, you learned from a union guy and it's uh I
think the union is kind of creeping in here and kind of showing us that, hey, we talk crap about the the union,
but they do have some really really good opportunities with training and we kind
of look at that and mimic it. They are really good at training. It's one of the things that they've always
been really good at and so shout out to all that. Yeah. And he Hugo was really good. Last
year I I mean they were all pretty close, man. Or the year that he competed. I was like, man, they're all right there.
There's just, you know, little things that we can't see that the judges see. But like like he said, Hugo's a boss.
Jim Freeman said, Hugo's a boss. Yeah. Jim Freeman said Hugo's a boss. And that's what you need is you need these competitions to be like that. And
if you think that you're like the guy where Kevin went and visited his job and you already know everything, I invite
you to go to these regional regionals. Just like if you think you're you're
that good, just go to a regional competition and see if you can prove it.
Most of the guys don't even want to. I can tell you like with dealing with thousands of installers at Trade Tap,
there's a pretty good majority guys. I'll just tell you straight up, they don't want to do it because they don't
want to know where they land. They don't want someone to tell them that they're not good. Yeah. They they've got it so stuck in
their head. It's the guy that it's it would be whoever Kevin was talking about. It's that kind of person that's
like, you know, no, I I I
already know everything. As far as Kevin, I mean, I I'll kick his
ass in stitches on carpet. That's D. Shots fired. Shots fired.
We're gonna see maybe in uh what is that? November. We'll see. I mean, y'all
saw my stitches last year. So, mentioning Ty, that's right around the corner. Really? I mean, it ain't going
to be long. We're all in Vegas. And also coming up uh convention with CFI and FCICA.
That is in November. What date is that there for? Do you remember the actual date? I think it's the week of the 10th. Uh
yeah, 10th. Yeah. Will take you to the training page, but
then you can still get around and look for the the event. So yeah, it's called this energy
conference. So Google that and you'll find it. And so that's right around the corner. if
you want to. There's some talk about there was a couple manufacturers I believe that were considering um
doing some tours doing well no doing some uh uh oh here we go. Yeah, boy.
He didn't he didn't tag you in it so it's not official but uh there's they were talking about
maybe scholarshipping some people. Oh so that would be fantastic if that's going
to come through or what. Uh, I don't have any, you know, there's no nothing
on the deck that I know of. I just had had heard that that could happen.
So, we'll see. You I'm sure it'll get out there if if
uh some of the manufacturers decide to. Uh but uh irregardless, I cannot
understate how cool it is to go to convention and meet some of the people that jump on here every week and and uh
comment as well as some of the people that just watch the show that I meet at every convention. and um
the uh the camaraderie and the friendships you'll build and the
resources you'll have at your fingertips just a few you know phone a phone call
away to help you through a tough situation or whatever that's invaluable to installation. I mean,
you know, if you don't if you can if you can take a moment uh Kevin's friend, I'll call him, uh to uh you know, humble
yourself enough to call someone else for some advice, those this is where you'll meet a lot of those people. So,
unless someone called him for you and then you were just all buttth hurt about it.
Romero does say that uh thanks for the episode and he needs to see some towel competitions. He's been telling every
other people about this and they did have tile in their They used to It's been years ago, hadn't
it? Yeah, it was. I think 2020 was the last time, was it?
Well, even at Coverings, they have stuff like that. Like they have the people who make the dogous and stuff like that.
Well, the testing, but still like they have little things here and there, but there's I mean,
it's kind of complicated. It's not the It is. And um there's a
little bit of like se like getting someone like the CTEF's going to have to
put it on, but they're also busy because they do CTI like at at TIC they'll do
some certifications there. So they're kind of, you know, split. They've got a lot of effort going
into getting some guys um getting some guys
uh certified. they're at at the actual event.
Um, I don't know. It It's a big deal what what CFI does to put that
competition on and uh in conjunction with the TIE folks, they it's a huge
freaking lift. It's not easy to get all of that put together and manage these
regionals and then have a have it put together at the show in a way that's
both fun to watch because that's why we all get on the catwalk is to watch these guys skills and I love going up there by
the way that's a if you don't go to convention go to Ty and go to the installation competition
uh I believe it's gonna we're gonna have more room this year for it as well. Fantastic. And on top of that, like
watching the guys from the catwalk, it it's it's fun to go people watch because you see all these people just standing
there that are are retailers and different people that are not actual
installers really appreciating what these dudes are doing down there. And
some of the best have not won that competition. So
it doesn't matter who who was going to be in Dalton, but it's in Chattanooga, right?
Yeah, I think they're still going to run down Poker Night at Scots. I think they might still run down to do
some stuff in Dalton. Maybe do uh some sightseeing at some locations of some
sort. Maybe some manufacturers and stuff like that. So, we'll see what they're going to put together
uh this year. Next year. I mean, I have some ideas for next year, Ty, but I don't know if
they're going to want to pick them up. But, uh, they're going to be I think they would be a lot more fun and something different. The competition's
been around for a while, but I feel there's, uh, there's, uh, stuff we can do with teams. There's stuff we can do
with other machinery on people who actually go and sell that kind of stuff there. So, we'll see what's up for for
Dton. Yeah, the regional's in Dalton. There's always going to be a regional in
Dalton now. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks everybody for
joining us today. I want to uh I really appreciate all the uh comments and and
uh horror stories. Uh I know it's difficult to get on and talk about those
because you don't want to throw clients under the bus and uh you know, so not trying to do that. We're just, you know,
good war stories is all this was. Uh so thanks to everybody for the comments and
um want to thank Pro Installer Magazine again. go pick up an issue. You used to
pick them up at the um at the uh distributors. Distributors, I don't know that they're
there so often anymore, but you can still grab your digital copy. So, scan
the QR code, stay in stay in touch with uh what's going on in the industry.
And uh Trade Tap, Trade Tap is uh we are
pushing all the pedals right now. uh growing the network like crazy and we're
we're hoping you'll join our movement of you know cataloging and credentializing
installers so that the good guys stand out. Um and you know there's so much
opportunity when you can prove your worth and your your value that takes you out of the price war. And thank you to
all of our ambassadors that are coming on board. We really appreciate that. You'll see their their post coming on.
Jorge and Daniel and and uh there's a lot of guys that are are joining the
network. I was going to have Jose, but then I was like, then we got the brothers, you know, who's gonna maybe
we'll still do it and you guys can see who can win the the social media awards. The Mario brothers.
The Mario Brothers. The Gonzalez brothers. Too much uh technical difficulties.
No way. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much again for joining us today. Thanks to our sponsors and uh again come
see us at convention and we're going to do a puddle live from uh convention
again. So that'll be fun and spread the word about trade tap as Kevin says uh
spread the word and with that we will catch you guys next week. catch us on YouTube, catch us
on freaking Spotify and just all the podcasts. Just go find our our uh
content and react to it. Give us some thumbs up and and uh you know, comment on there.
We really appreciate the interaction. So, thank you guys so much and we'll catch you guys next week.
Catch me on the download, everyone.
