The Huddle - Episode 207. What the Flooring Industry Can Learn From Other Trades
Some of the best conversations happen when the audience joins in.
This week's episode of The Huddle turned into exactly that. What started as a discussion about what the flooring industry can learn from other trades quickly became a lively exchange of ideas, experiences, and opinions from viewers across the industry. The energy was high, the comments were rolling in, and the conversation touched on everything from training and professionalism to business practices, recruitment, and industry perception.
One of the biggest takeaways was that flooring isn't alone in its challenges. Other trades are facing many of the same issues, but they're also finding solutions worth paying attention to. Whether it's apprenticeship programs, leadership development, certification standards, or attracting the next generation, there is plenty to learn from industries that have already traveled similar roads.
This episode serves as a reminder that progress doesn't always come from looking inward. Sometimes it comes from studying what's working elsewhere and being willing to adapt it to our own industry.
If you missed the live conversation, this is one you'll want to catch. The audience brought just as much value to the discussion as the hosts did.
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I don't know. I'm black and white. What is up team? Welcome, welcome back to the huddle, the number one podcast in
flooring. We're here every week to help you gain forward progress in your career. Simply put, me and the boys are
here to help you win. To all our new viewers, welcome to the team.
What's up? That got started pretty funny right out of the gate. No idea.
What are you in? What are you all black and white for? Oh, no. Not baby Michael.
Is it your camera? I It just turned. I So, I opened up the
settings to see what is going on and I have no idea.
Like, there's not even anything that says new filter to turn black and white. Well, to all our viewers here on the
huddle, we got 1930s Daniel. Oh, he's back to the 2026.
See, I don't know what happened there. See?
Oh, that's hilarious. All right. Well, and we're back. What's up, Jorge?
First comment. That's what you should put. First comment, Fred. Um yeah, so today's
topic is we're kind of we've done this topic before and uh it's always fun to
kind of chat about but it's also where a lot of nuggets lie I think and that is
what is the flooring what can the flooring industry or more applicably what can we as individuals in the
flooring industry learn from other trades and go back up to the industry level. What can our
industry, the leaders, the organizations that guide policy and things uh in and and you know
the way our industry is, what can they learn from other trades. So that is today's um topic. Want to give a quick
shout out to Trade Tap and the VTI all live. Go get your profile started. We've
added um thousands of new quality
thousands flooring loving uh profiles to the network here uh
recently and um got a great opportunity to to uh expand into uh another market
outside the US that uh I'll talk about at a later date. It's pretty cool to watch how other people uh get excited
about, you know, installers coming together in a community and what can happen when that happens. And that's
what we're asking you to do with the VTI. If you're not a member or a you don't have a live profile on there,
let's get it going, guys. What you waiting for? Also, you know, we talk about getting
involved in the industry all the time. One simple, really easy way is a what's
on your screen right now. go get your profile uh get it started and then we're going
to be keep an eye out on all of our social media channels for Trade Tap. That's where we're sharing all the new
developments and ways that you can uh leverage your VTI to make yourself
better opportunities as well as win more work. Um
thank you. [laughter] We got a these guys in our private chat. I tell
you what, Jose sometimes he just knocks me right off the guard rails here. But
get get yourself a VTI. Uh but another way and a simple way is to go check out
Pro Installer Magazine. Those guys over there, they really put a lot of effort into making the magazine um resonate
with installers. Uh, also if you have any topics or things that you'd like us
to write about in Pro Installer, let us know and we'll get with those guys and and uh see about getting a an article
written uh addressing whatever concerns or you know uh opportunities you see in
the flooring industry. Right. Unless you're one of the pros and want to talk about it, I'm sure they'll
they want to have you write the article too. Yeah. Hey man, we can get you in touch
with the right people to write an article yourself. And that is a,
you know, generally a pretty good experience and and an awesome opportunity. So
yeah, go check out uh Pro Installer. It's it's a good magazine. It used to be
at all the distributors. Now I'm not sure if they still do print. they still
do for us, but uh you know, get your digital copy. Uh I always see it at distributors,
warehouses and and such. So um one way or another, get yourself over to Pro
Installer and check that out. All right,
just getting a few housekeeping items here done and
I think we're there. I think we got some people on now, too.
All right. Well, welcome, welcome, welcome everybody. Let's see. Catch up on some comments, everyone. Thank you
all for taking the time to share with us. You are welcome, Romeo. Romero,
Romero, Romero. I said Romeo. I think you're probably a Romeo, too. But [laughter]
yeah, Jorge uh he was stuck in the 50s. Denise, great magazine. I agree.
Then Nick, not many people doing a a podcast for flooring. And I think there's actually more and more popping
up. So, I mean, it's definitely something that's been needed, right? That's why we've been doing this for the
past what, four years now. Something like that. Four years. No way. Thanks for joining us, Nick. We
appreciate it. We are located in two different areas. One in Kansas, one in
Michigan. The boys are up in Michigan. This boy is down in Kansas, Witchaw
specifically, Grand Rapids specifically for those gentlemen. All right. Well, guys,
well, what can industry from an individual level? I'm
just going to kind of take us up and down. So, down on the like us level, the
installer. And for anybody new in the audience, just to let you know, all three of us installed for many years.
Some of sometimes we still do. Uh we both we all lead a flooring company.
Mine's in Kansas, theirs in Grand Rapids. And uh I think they're they have
a better balance of commercial residential up there. Uh we are about 95% commercial down here with a little
bit of residential uh when we work with our designers and such. when you can't get away from it. Well,
that's right. When you can't when you can't avoid it. Um, I've been in flooring since 99 as a as a owner and 95
as a help. I started as a helper in 95. So, been doing this my entire adult
life. Love the industry. uh don't always love all the things the industry does,
but I do love what we bring to the table in construction and what that what that
means when it's done right. Uh what it means and then what it's like to, you
know, I also enjoy the I I talked about this in the
last podcast, I think, but I love standing back and seeing the work after it's done. And now I take pride that
same feeling kind of comes out that I say pride that that proud feeling of my
guys when I get to look at their work uh when it's completed and so yeah it's uh
pretty awesome. Thanks for all I'm catching up with you buddy. Yeah really bring really brings it into
perspective when you say my entire adult life because guess what? Me too. Yeah.
And way longer than that for me. Yeah. Yeah. You started as an adolescent
and [laughter] back before I could even think about having facial hair. Back before they they told you contact
adhesive was bad to sniff. [laughter] No, I'm pretty sure I've always known
that. He just didn't tell me. And getting under broad loom up a set of stairs that's been contact cemented
already is a is not good. Yeah. For some reason, it makes me hungry. [laughter]
Tired. Hungry. Well, um, to address the topic, Jose, kick us off.
What's your thought on an individual level? What is the, you know, flooring installer or an
electrician? Uh, well, f first off, like, um, this is,
let's just go back to when I was an installer and then what I could see, right? I I could see that every everyone
around me was was uniformed, right? Everyone around me is uniformed. They they had a
structure. There was an obvious hierarchy on how they started and um you
know it it didn't click until obviously later on what that was and that was
called structure. everyone had some type of structure and guidelines to follow that that gave them
a a a title that that gave them uh their their daily tasks. Um and I think um
looking back that was we missed that. Um I missed that when I first started. um
didn't really know. was just kind of, you know, whoever was the best that day
was was doing that type of work and um and and realistically and honestly, we
didn't really have that type of structure uh when we started uh preferred flooring, right? So, moving
into and that was many years into it and I think that we're still missing that. I
see a lot of people are still missing that and even if some type of structure is provided the understanding of the
hierarchy and the structure um is missing and and maybe it's a installers
flooring installers are kind of freelanced even whether they're subcontractors or employees kind of um
uh was it dog eat dog world man versus man woman versus woman kind of I'm
better than than you at this so I should be in charge today and you know it's like
we're missing that structure from day one is what it is. Um I think that is uh certainly true
especially when you maybe put the whole project into play. So, we're are
we're we're missing structure and getting the time and space and things
like that that's needed to do our jobs, too. I mean, uh it's a different type of structure. I I get what you're saying.
Do you think that it's missing structure or just missing
culture? And uh you know, one thing to point out in
flooring is there's really four to five distinct different floorings, right? And
you can be an expert in one and absolutely not even know what to do with the other. You could be a So there's a
little bit of that struggle in ours where electricians and electricians electrician except for if you have like
industrial versus commercial versus residential. Yeah.
Even commercial and residential. commercial guy can go wire a house no problem and
it's it's more like you know uh standard whereas you could
so I'm defending us a little bit here because oh that's right in a different structure like who's in
charge because dude if you're doing a sheet bottle job and you got a great sheet bottle guy but
he's not the senior person um then
the like you got to have your sheet vinyl guy in charge of that job, you know, especially if he's awesome.
And so it's kind of tough when you have carpet really two multiple different carpets. I know guys that do carpet tile
but that won't touch broad but won't touch broad. Guys that touch broad loom but won't touch anything
woven. you start to say jute or or anything
they or natural or anything [laughter] natural natural and they've already left your building
uh if they know what it even means you know so there's so many distinct skill sets
within flooring that makes it tough but so let me uh let me add to that because
of the lack of structure there is unless you have someone who says hey you're starting learning this
then You're right that we have too many different products, too many things to learn about in the commercial industry
and that's probably why it's scattered. You kind of get thrown to the wolves. We got to have this job done. We have deadlines and and you're absolutely
right. There is no we should learn uh this one first and then as we learn this
and get better, then we'll graduate and go. There's no structure as far as where to start um in the industry um as a
brand new installer, labor, helper. Um and it's different
commercial. Well, there is. Yeah, there is now. But I'm saying when we when I when I started, there was nothing in place for
that. And you know, and and you could take a commercial guy who's been two years in
and then go right into residential and you're starting brand new again, right? brand new. You don't know where you're at, right?
You know basics of I got to get the floor done and this is carpet funny side
up and I got to seal. You may understand you got to seal the seam, right? May maybe maybe
putting those two, putting the Yeah. seam together, cutting the seam, all that stuff. It's like two separate
almost like two totally different skill sets. Yeah. I do think there's a little bit of
if you know with some new structure that has come out in the industry there are some ways to like take it I accidentally
kind of took a decent path I think I learned broad loom you know and then I
ended up learning a how to do VCT and that's back in the day that dates me
that's when VCT ruled the world long before LBT was around I mean it was around but just very sparingly
Um, you know, and then I moved into sheet vinyl and I thought that was a pretty
good progression because I could do carpet tile because just a mod another modular product when it really started
gaining steam. I mean I did carpet tile back in their 90s when with Milicanin
and I think Interface Collins and Aman a few of the brands that actually had carpet tile back then. But going from
broad loom carpet to VCT and I'd say quartz modular Fritz tile all that
resilient modular and then move it into resilient sheet. That gave me a good
understanding on how to do almost all the flooring. The only thing I've never really got into a ceramic tile. I
certainly understand how it's done, but I don't I couldn't do it very well. Um,
so having some type of progression or some type of like, hey, that would be nifty if the industry would say, you
know what, if you're new to flooring, start with carpet, broad loom carpet, then go to, you know, modular resilient.
And it kind of is that way, but I know plenty of guys that will t will do like
carpet tile and LVP. They don't want broad loom. They don't want anything to do with any like quartz, anything harder
than LVT to install or LVP, they don't want to touch. And so I think
we have these skill gaps throughout all these uh throughout installers that
really for us, it's really important that we know what each one of
our crews are capable of. But that progression is not an industry driven
thing. That's more individual, isn't it? It It is. It is. And And yeah, that's
what I was alluding to is that order of importance. Uh and they're just it just
wasn't there. Uh my first day I was a demo guy. It's like, "Yeah, rip this
up." And you just tear it up like, "No, you Well, you have to be careful. You you can't peel the the drywall. You
can't do this." So, you got to be careful. and then carry those steps up and it should be really easy and then it
was unitary contacted on and I hated I hated my life. I was like what am I
doing? Why am I do why am I here? Uh but you know you go go into that and I did
start with broad loom and a mix of broad and carpetile then resilient sheal right some and then
forbo or lenolium right and then and then back to broad but more pattern and
it was it was back and forth and it was just so well you guys still I I'm sorry to
interrupt you but you guys still kind of do have that approach because I know you guys went to
a natural fiber training, maybe even a certification
within a year here. Um, and you're you're kind of known for being awesome sheet vinyl guys, but you're over here
doing natural fiber stuff. Uh, which is super cool. Uh, but you guys still kind
of have that approach of like we should know what's going on out here. And
it it's because if if we don't know and we're the ones that are selling it and we just have someone just going to do
it, like if I don't know what what's wrong and what's right, then they can
just go in there and butcher it up and we'd have no idea. Mhm. That's what that's why we did it,
right? And and it's not that um I wouldn't touch it or anything. It's just
I want to know what I'm touching. Yeah.
So would you one the one thing and I only wrote really really wrote down one thing
but the one thing that I was I kind of hearkened it back to is across
the industry you certainly have pockets of of pride not in the not in the bad sense of
the word pride but like accomplishment that good feeling of
accomplishment uh in installation uh flooring
installation, but it's it's the best guys of the best guys that have that. You know what I mean? Like it it's not
across every installer to have that pride of of their of their work and
pride of who they are. They're a floor layer or a floor technician, however you
want to say it. Uh but you see electricians out with freaking you, you
know, local 570 with a lightning bolt in the fist, you know. Uh there just seems
to be a little bit more pride around, you know, some of the licensed trades
really like. Right. And so you just brought up a good point and that that's where like the structure
and the progression is it it doesn't the other trades
have that they they have the standardized you have to go learn it doesn't matter union or not right you're
starting here you're pushing a broom you're you're the gopher go for this go for that you're the laborer you're going
to play cleanup and they start gauging you as an employee uh on where you would
succeed more. Um, and if you start absorbing and picking it up and and applying, uh, then those are the guys
who progress. There there's a couple dozen guys that we worked with years ago before Preferred Flooring that are in
leadership roles now, right? And they are running the entire projects or they are overseeing uh the the bidding
process, right? They're the ones sending us the conceptual bid invites now. And it's just like that's pretty awesome to
watch the progress their progression from pushing a broom to being in charge
making the calls to now being behind the scenes and and helping um those
individuals move up the ladder. And uh I I seen Jimmy's uh little post little
thing there about the burning scene 100% dude. Um, I did. And here's what
he's referring to so everyone knows. We were taking a certification class together. And I thought
I could do like five things at one time. Talk on the phone, no scheduled things,
talk to the guys, do some double stick, do some other things, help other people with some other scene, some hands-on.
And I put my my seam tape right next to the seam. And I burnt the uh I burnt the
tape. I was using the um dude I always forget yeah the cool glide using the cool glide
and I burnt it and I was like then we left came back from lunch and they're like
who see who did this piece and I was like I don't know they're like they they didn't even put the tape in the right
place. I'm like, haha. I did. That's mine. That's mine.
I did an area rug with cool glide and milin carpet tile. Three meter by meter
carpet tile and cool glided it all together because they wanted the a uh uh
area rug to match their the rest their facility carpet. It worked perfect,
dude. Awesome. Yeah, you can you can literally seam and you couldn't tear that seam
apart. I hope and you don't have to seam seal because it's corpile. And uh yeah, did a for
yeah like a 14 by 30 something and then I had a guy come out and surge it in the
field and it looked like a damn area rug. It's a bunch of carpet tile. Anyway, it all stayed together other than it's kind of a cool story.
[laughter] Hey, but Jimmy, it looked good when I was done with the repair, brother. I didn't let it defeat me.
So, Nick says, "I'd love to hear your perspective on what makes a project get done successfully and what the biggest
problem you seen that leads to project issues." So,
on the project management, stab at that uh not installation, but
more on project management. Okay. So, it's kind of Yeah, it's kind of what we talk about
all the time. It's that communication piece, right? And um
I mean until we started bidding our own jobs, I had no idea that in every single
bid package there was literature that said that you had to follow it um you
know by manufacturer specifications or by ASM. I
had no idea any of that was actually in the literature and I'm sure many people out there right now don't know that
either. But it's actually in there. And if you don't pass this information along, it's
a lot of it can dwindle all the way down to you it being your fault because you
were supposed to know, right? But um communication uh this
this reducer goes here. Don't use this reducer here. This one goes over there.
You know, something as simple as that. And it's down to the color, right? This color over here. That color over there.
This base over here. And it's yeah that kind of
things are dumped on you like just here's all the stuff go do the job and you don't um as an installer go through
everything and then start asking questions that's that's it too right because you we can
give you all the information but unless you're looking at everything and actually going like okay well why is
this like that then you don't really know. Yeah, I I I the very first part of his
question is perspective on what makes projects get done successfully and I think that communication is the number
one thing but that is only valuable if
you have planned. So, planning so you have some stuff to communicate,
the proper stuff to communicate. Uh, proper planning of the jobs and being
able to lay that out and and get that information into your installer's hands.
That is number one uh path to success. PM needs to know the project, all the
materials, what what's going into it and how it should look. and they have to have a working knowledge at least a
working knowledge of the the uh installation process and then be able to
pass that on. And I also think uh that sharing with your installers the
installation instructions even if they know how to install that particular flooring uh you know with trade tap we
are able to add that all that information as well as documents showing
different transitions go here here and here. This color means it's carpet. This is
the carpet. This color means it's LVT. This is the LVT. it runs this direction,
it's a random install. All of that information, if you can make a get your
plan together for your project and then as a PM get that information over to
your installer and then encourage open dialogue between the two of you. Don't
have make sure that it's comfortable for them to contact the PM so that if they
have a problem, they contact you. So I believe it's planning with that
communication Daniel was talking about and either one of them could be done without the other and it's not very
good. But them two done together really really is the magic sauce.
So So the first So what you just explained and the first time I ever came across that is when I started sitting
down and in meetings with uh the companies we were doing work for. Um I I
was in the kickoff meeting. and I was uh showing up and sitting down with the general contractors and and having those
discussions even if I wasn't part of the discussion at that moment or part of that plan. Um being invited to sit at
the table for these progress meetings um was was very valuable, right? Like now I
understood how much planning went into a single project. Even if my portion was a
very small part, all that planning that went into it, like from groundbreaking, if it was brand new
or a remodel, the renovation and and hearing all the moving parts and pieces,
having the discussion so that way they understood this is when I need to be in here, but I
need to be out of your way so you can do this, right? And putting those pieces together and or refining the schedule so
that way it complemented everyone's progression. And that's where what we could learn from the other trades, even
if it's just our part. Um, and that was a long time ago, a very long time ago,
but it was the first realization that we don't sit down and we don't talk like
that. We don't have those discussions on what's coming up. The schedule is the schedule. And I'm receiving my paper for
some projects today and I'm starting today. I wasn't part of any of that conversation prior to and I don't know
the condition of the project or or the the job site. Yeah, that's really getting into what
where some GC's fail that and to to include and and to consider your scope
of work as part of the construction process. I I do want to bring up that
Rollin his comment is kind maybe the the um the jet fuel to
the two things that Daniel and I talked about and that's respect for one another. Once you have those other two
things in in line, if you respect your installer and the installer respects his
PM, so when communication is given, they both respect that communication.
Um, that's maybe the jet fuel that really makes a project go off. So, thanks for that comment, Rand. I I I
think that's right valuable. kind of piggybacking off of what he was saying about going to the
meetings and stuff and I've been in, you know, numerous meetings where the the
project manager will be in there and then they'll bring in, you know, the lead installer or a couple guys that are
are running the project and, you know, every time
they they ask that trade a question, the PM always just goes like this and looks
at at those guys to answer and in the flooring because I was this was something that we were helping on um
labor only like with us the the project manager would would
start talking right and then he'd be promising the world and then they'd look
at me and they'd be like Daniel what do you think about that I'm like ain't gonna happen [laughter] like
like you want that is not going to happen it is kind of funny how when you sit in
job meetings and I've sat in hundreds and hundreds of them. Yeah. Um how you may have a PM with another
firm say fireproofing and talking or you know whatever. Uh and when a technical
question is a asked his ass doesn't say nothing. He looks over to his foreman and his foreman answers. And then when
it's more like a schedule or when are materials or when's my change order gonna get here, you know, or an ASI
reviewed or something, then the PM, it's like the PMs know their lanes better in
those cases. But part of that is this this subcontracting world, who's the
foreman on a job, right? A lot of places just send their sub and their sub goes
and it's a lead guy that kind of acts like he's a foreman. Uh or like what we
we like to do. We can't do it every time, but what we prefer to do is have at least one hourly crew, even if it's
just two guys doing work, and the head mechanic there is our foreman on the
job, a working foreman, and then he, you know, distills the information down to
the subs. That's how we like to do it. It just isn't possible on every project.
But yeah, it's uh and I agree, Nick. It is uh I I don't think hardly anybody uh
that hasn't had to put a project plan together realizes how much planning and
documentation goes into getting a job done in flooring because you're fighting for space conditions
sequencing all this. Not only that, just the submitts themselves, right? just like you
I was working with an architect where they wanted to know every single thing. Like if it was coming out of the van,
they wanted to know everything about it. And then I had a tile guy on this job
and he's like, "Hey, I'm uh I'm probably going to run out of thin set." Granted, he he was going to run out of thin set
because I seen buckets and buckets wasted, right? because that's just a
tile guy thing to do because I've seen it not just on our project. Tile guys don't do that. But [laughter]
but I'm I'm I was He was like, I just I have some of this uh in my truck. Can I just use this? And I'm like, no, I got
to get you a bag of this stuff because if they come in and something goes wrong and they test this little bit and
they're like, "Yeah, this isn't our stuff." Then that's my fault. Yep. You just bought it. Yep. And a lot
of times that's, you know, it's literally in the specification. You got
to do that. You got to use that product. A lot of your car dealerships, and I have a few other jobs, uh, here recently
even that, you know, we don't use custom hardly ever, but their megalite mortar
is awesome. And it gets specified pretty often in car dealerships and such, and
we do a fair amount of car dealerships. And that's just one instance. I wouldn't let a piece of base get put on unless
it's with that product, you know. So, there is a lot of planning and and moving and that's why it's so important
to plan. The more re the more planning is needed, the more obviously more
important the planning process uh actually is. So, I wanted to hearken
back real quick to something Jose said here. He says, "In a perfect world, flooring would receive the same level of
respect and importance as other trades like HVAC, plumbing, and electrical." I
brought this up to a GC once and um they were like, "Well, all those
guys have to get done for you guys to be able to do your job." So, in suac
or however you say that, you are very important. the only reason we're doing this in such a fast manner
and really pressuring those guys is to give you the site conditions you require. I'm like, all right, well,
we'll see if you give us the space required to get our job done. I got something to combat that. Yeah,
but I think he's talking more like when we walk on the job, we don't have the
level of respect that these other trades do. I think at the end of the day, that is coming. Um,
look, I I try not to just self-promote the VTI
all the time, but if you have a badge of VTI badge and you share that and it
comes across as a master installer, you're going to get the respect. The problem is, as I see it, or at least one
of the problems, is that they don't know if you're really awesome or you're going
to be like that other guy on their last job that screwed up the whole area and they had to redo it. I mean, it's just
when all when our quality across the industry takes a step up and we get
really consistent as an industry, I think that respect will come along, right? Because like he was Jose was
saying earlier too, it's that progression that they have. And you can be an electrician or an HVAC and be, you
know, an apprentice, a journeyman, a master. And no one argues with that because you've had to go to schooling
for all of those levels to get up to there. So they know that you had to pass some stuff. With flooring, it's just
like, yes, I do flooring. I got a pouch. I got knee pads. I do floors. Yeah. And that's the great the
great uh fight of our of a of the good installers is that you're out there
competing against guys who don't know and no one else
knows the difference between the two of you which is again why the VTI was ever created in the first place was to give
clear separation there. Right. Uh Nick asked a question here.
Take that one Daniel would you? Yeah. if we sub out installation or keep it in house. And uh everyone here h does
a mixture of each of them because I think like again going back to the
previous conversation there's just so much in flooring to know that you can't
be a master of everything, right? and and even if you know how to install uh the majority of the products
you're working with, there's somebody out there who does it every day who's going to be more
efficient proficient than you are. Um you know, if if if we shift gears and go
we start installing all of our hard tile and doing all 100% of our residential, we're not going to be as quick as
someone who that's their primary source of income. They do that every day. They're going to know
every trick. They're going to know all all [snorts] they're going to know how to stage everything and and and and fight through
that progression a lot quicker than we are. Well, they touch the product all the time. They have the tools and I mean,
you know, one of the reasons I never tried tile is or did tile was the few times I did it in our company's early
years, I freaking had to go buy a freaking breaker board and you know, I
didn't have the stuff to even do it. Like so to answer your question probably
super direct Nick as a industry I don't know um if you're in the industry or not
but as an industry about 87% of every bit of flooring that you've
walked across in in the last 30 years has been done by a subcontractor. Mhm.
Now there like us uh my com my flooring company in Witchaw as well as I know uh
preferred up in Grand Rapids. We both have a mix of in-house W2 employee
installers and subcontractors. I think they run probably more of a of a hourly
uh you know employee installer house uh and then supplement where they need. We
have about eight or so in-house guys. We'd like that to be 12. Um but and then
we sub everything else out. So probably about that percentage, 85%
of our work is probably subbed out. And I want to touch base on
that's read Mike's comment before you go anywhere. Tell me that's not true.
Yeah. Oh, dude. [laughter] You know, that makes me chuckle.
But that that holds a lot of weight, too, what he just says because that is goes back to supposed to read it for the people that
can't read it. Oh, my bad. My bad. It says, uh, I love the first day on on the site. All the other trades find out how far they are
behind. Um, and yes, yes, they
because we don't plan properly for the most part. We just kind of get that work
order and then show up to the job site. We're here to do your floors. We're on the calendar. We're on the schedule.
Nobody Everybody forgot because they're a couple they're behind, right? Something was on back order and it pushed everything back. Well, I've
literally had GC's tell me, "Well, we just need you to show up because it it
all the other subs on notice. It pushes everybody." Um, yes, that happens a lot. Like, but
can you start in that corner over there where it doesn't make any sense for you to start, but they'll know you're here
and Yeah. Yeah. They they use us to be the bad guy, not understanding we need everyone to be
on our side so we can get that real estate that we need to get some progress
done. Um, but yeah. Yeah, making friends is what it's all about. And it might
uh uh but what I was going to do is go back to about the viewed as the the other trades, the HVAC and the plumbing.
Um, and I wrote a couple things down, too. It's in order to be viewed that way, we have
to carry ourselves that way, too, right? It's not all about just respect me because I'm demanding respect. I'm a
tradesman. It's a They invest in their appearance. They invest into their they
have poise. Um they they exume professionalism, right? They they have
to carry themselves at a certain level of professionalism depending on what title they carry. Um and
we as flooring installers have to understand, especially in commercial world, we are the last def defense for
all the other trades, too. And we have to make sure they know that if we don't do a good job and they start picking our
work apart, they're going to start picking everybody else's work apart, you know, from the from the the finished
products through. Oh, look at that base. That looks like crap. Well, yeah, but look at right here. The paint looks like
crap. Oh, well, look at this. Why is that? That's not in the right spot. Why is that sconce there?
I kind of like when I walk into a job and there's blue tape all over the walls. [laughter] I'm like, they're
really paying attention to that paint. They my stuff too close. [laughter] Well, they Yeah. Well, yeah. Ying and
Yang, right? Like that's We did a bangup job. There's no blue tape. Um
I hate it when you go to a project and and it looks like like someone's trying to repair everything with the blue tape
and uh you start looking at things like take your finger and smudge it off the
floor like, "Well, that's a footprint, brother." Like that's a footprint.
Got to clean. Yeah. or it's always on a punch list. But but they came and drilled 24 holes
through your hard tile in the wrong spot, but it's a punch list. Yeah, the punch list thing drives me
nuts. We go I I just got pictures before the podcast today on job site that uh
said, "Well, you got thin set and glue all over the
storefronts. That's on the punch list." And I'm like, doesn't sound like us. But
come to find out it was a vestibule where they tore out the recessed floor and then we poured back uh self-leveler
and put carpet in, but it doesn't meet to the where the old recess went to and
we couldn't. You got a door a an actual door we have to go to and we didn't. And
it's not got anything to do, Mr. PM with our product, but it got on our punch
list. Anyway, back on to the good stuff here. Uh, I wanted to point something
out. Um, Rand kind of mentioned and you touched
on it, Jose, that you can get you get the respect on an individual level. Rand, I agree with
you. Uh, respect is kind of commanded in a lot of ways. You walk on expecting
things, not with an arrogant expectation, but a teachable expectation
like, "Well, this stuff has to move. Get all this out of here. We're running the floor this way, so I can't have you, you
know, I got to get everything out of here that way." And, you know, doing your moisture test and carrying yourself
like a professional like Jose said. And you will get that individual respect. I
think what Nick, if I remember right, was the one that asked about that. It could have been another commenter. But
if you're talking about industry respect though, that's where
not just you walking on as an individual because you're right, we find ways to work with other trades. Jose and Daniel
talked about it before about, you know, getting the guy to get move your stuff in on the l give him a six-ack of beer,
whatever. you know, I mean, you work with other trades pretty well, but on the overall schedule side of things, uh,
the respect is, I think, from an industry, like them respecting our industry is like when they try to force
you into getting into, uh, doing that little corner uh, of a 50,000 ft
building and starting over there because that's the only space they have. And they are demanding that you're there.
And they're demanding and putting in writing that they're ready. And that's
this this legal posturing that general contractors do a lot uh is all legal
posturing and riskmanagement stuff. And that's the hardest part to overcome
really is that thing. Um, if you've ever, you know, if you do these big
commercial jobs, you have ran across this where you get on the job site and they're like, "Well, none of the this is
ready, but you can do like the three break rooms of LVP." And I'm like,
"Dude, your job's 3 hours away from our home office, and you want me to come out and do 600t of LVP? I we'll be done in
half a day. What are we going to do after that?" Right. Well, you'll have to come back,
you know. So, it's it's not respecting that we have a process we have to
follow, not respecting that we have parameters. I I think it's because so much flooring
GCs have witnessed so much flooring get put down because the guy didn't care. He didn't care about the site conditions.
He didn't care. He just that's where he was supposed to start. He It's not on his work order.
That's right. I mean, he just does it. Right. Well, then they come across somebody like me that's like, "Well,
your humidity is high and you know, your building's not enclosed." This product
specifically states in its its manufacturer specs and installation instructions that all building the
entire building envelope has to be closed in and your HVAC has to be up and
running. not temp H2AC. Controlled conditions means you can actually control the conditions. And so they get
these two they get these um different personalities and I act like it's
the end of the world if you don't do it the right way and this other guy just did it and it seemed like everything
worked out. The job went fine kind of thing. It doesn't always go fine first
off and secondly is there's a right way to do it and we should do it the right way. So, if you're one of them
installers that have went out there and done that, don't do that again. You [laughter] should. Yeah. Don't do that. You know that that Go ahead,
Daniel. You just pop that up. Oh, Nick just says coordinating with the uh builder, PM on site readiness is the
first step, but also just as important uh if not more, is making sure the
installers has everything they need to minimize questions and fires to be put out that may delay flooring or tile
work. Great statement. Yep. Yeah. Um, so that reminds me too
and kind of what what you said kind of tying that together is early on in a couple relationships people were
they were didn't know if they wanted to work with us, right? Because they're like, "Dude, you you're asking for so
much." I'm like, "No, no, I'm not." It went from you're asking for for so much
out of this project before you set foot on it to I like working with you because you're so detail oriented, right? So it
went from them having this like nobody else asked her for this. Nobody else asked me these questions or expects this
to be at this stage before they step on the site to we have Jose and Daniel. We
have preferred flooring during the install. We need to make sure that we're at this point before they show up.
Yeah. because they won't keep a lot of it was due to, you know, us being cryb babies, but then also showing
up and being like, like you said, you want me to do a half a day's work? Like, this is wasting my
time. You could have just waited another couple weeks and then gave me this whole area. Well, and this ties right into
Jose's uh um comment here is
like who if you don't talk about who cleans up the drywall mud. We have not
we don't just do it. When they say, "Well, you got to sand the floor." I'm like, "Yeah, we got to sand the floor,
not through a quarter inch or a half inch drywall mud to get to the floor."
You have to sweep anyways. just sweep up their mess. Yeah. Well, if I h if I don't get if you
don't want me to get patch, self-leveler, glue, all other kinds of
stuff on your wall before it's painted or in your drywall joints before you uh,
you know, fill them. Well, then you should not. It's the same thing. It's common sense, but they just are so
used to doing it. I would say, Jose, if you are just uh make sure you push back.
We we actually try to write in that the rooms are free of all debris and broom
swept before we take them over. Uh we don't always get that, but we try to get that in our contract. I have a 4:00,
which is why I jumped in. I've got to jump off here and let you guys finish this thing up. Great conversation, everybody. Uh Paul,
did you create your own SOPs or is there something you follow hire someone to do it? I the school of hard knocks did and
I'm willing to share them if you want to email me uh all of our SOPs and
processes procedures on many different things. Um we the school of hard knocks
built it for us. Uh we had to do it at one point for different things. As we grew we realize that we can't have
tribal knowledge. knowledge that is just up here in our head
in an individual's head. We have to have it in writing uh as a process or as a
standard operating procedure so that those things happen all the time regardless of whether I'm the PM or
someone else. So with that everybody, I love you guys. Thanks for all the comments. It's been awesome today. You guys have a
a great rest of the podcast. Appreciate y'all. Take it easy, bro.
Bye. So yeah, Paul Paul shared his SOPs with us
a few years ago as well. And and that was also when we came to the realization that we were we were missing things and
and I think uh Daniel learned and and said to me like through the mastermind
class that you did with Kyle, right? Like we got to where we're at on accident because we didn't have the
proper planning in the beginning. we didn't have the the foresight uh to to
write down uh processes and procedures or SOPs so that way we could duplicate
what we were doing. Um and and that's the importance of that as well. You guys being able uh to duplicate it and that's
where we fall short and why we look scattered as an industry on job sites sometimes because even for the basic
basic stuff like showing up to a job site, what do we do when we show up to a job site? what is the the first, second,
third things we do, right? Like we we didn't have that. Um and lack of communication from from
the top down um was part of it. Yeah. And that's something that we don't
get either is uh before the drywall goes up, they have to get it inspected,
right? And then you move on to the next thing. plumbing. The concrete doesn't get
poured unless that that plumbing is already inspected. You can't move on to the next thing. With us, it's like you
you were saying earlier, it's using us to push everyone else. And I think um
like other trades just don't realize how hard it is because I was on a meeting with one of the construction companies
the other day um and they had a one of their procurement people on there and he
was like you know to save money you can just only buy from one supplier. Like
cut everyone else out and just do one supplier. And then they looked at my name and they were like oh but flooring
is kind of hard. And I was like, "Yeah, I can't just go in and be like, "Hey guys, we're not
going to use what you want to use. We're just going to use whatever I say we're going to use." I said, "That don't fly."
No. Well, and that's them not understanding either. Right. So, and and that's the thing, right? When we
had um Jordan on um an electrician and we we talked to him and he's like,
"Yeah, I use this company or this company to get all my wire and conduit
and stuff from and that's it." So that puts him in a better spot to make a better margin because he buys so much
from one and it just with flooring it's like you don't
at some point you don't have a choice especially in the commercial world when architects and designers are picking
everything and then you can try and value engineer it but
it's not always that easy. No, it's not. And and when when the
material is already predetermined for you and you try to value engineer and go
outside of those specs if they allow it, you're not making friends with the rep who worked very hard to get their their
product in uh to the designer, the architect to get them speced, right? You're not making friends with them. So
the next time you try to call them and lean on them to get pricing, you know, you know it's dog dog world. Like I said
earlier, it's not going to be so favorable and it it's hard to stay consistent with one manufacturer and
keep everything in line through the same distributors or providers. It's it's it's
not always fun to track everything down and create a system that is going to be
protected by a warranty or within uh ASM or manufacturer standards when you got
to pull from so many different resources to to get to one finish line. Right. So Nick asks uh we've been doing
flooring for a long time. He's curious to hear the best tools and systems that have come along
and how we've uh changed how we operate the store. And it's I think
that sounds like a this is a whole podcast episode right here. Yeah, brother. Um
yeah, that's uh the evolution like our evolution has been Let's just say we
started with Ryobi, we have Milwaukee out, right? Like everything, right? everything like since
we're all with the different verticals that we have in the industry, it's hard
just to say one thing, right? I can say with sheet vinyl, it was one thing and
then with carpet, it was another and then even on the carpet side, it's the lift systems and and stuff like that.
So, it's not just an easy answer type thing, but we can definitely talk about it in a in a later
podcast. Um, as far as the the way we've changed with
operating the stores just in general is I mean we went from
you know um trying to word this
correctly even though it's not correct but a 1099 employee right which there is
no thing to actually having W2 employees um with benefits. And
I think that is one of the the biggest changes that we've done in the past. I mean, and that even that was over 10
years ago. Yeah, it was. It's it's the progression, right? Like when you we started as DBA
and then involved LLC and Right. And and then switching from 1099 to actual
classifying employees. We learned that from other companies, other trades, other
flooring companies who how would we want to be taken care of
and treated? So, and and we also seen that progression too like the the thing that we want to
bring to the industry from those other trades. It's you you start here and then
you go here. And without setting it up a certain way, it's it'll never happen
like that. But that is I think one of the the biggest things that we need to start taking into consideration in our
trade is what you started with. And that is okay, where are we going to where are
we going to start with someone and what is the progression
throughout their career in order to uh go from um and
I'm just saying that these words. I'm not saying that this is what they're named, but from an apprentice to a
master, right? got to get some uh a starting point and
some experience and learn learn absorb
and implement. But we're getting to the end of the podcast everyone. I think we're in a
good spot to to kind of shut this one down. Um but yeah, this is a good talk and thanks
for all the comments. We really appreciate it. Um, and if you guys haven't already, uh, well, first off, go
ahead and scan that if you have a second, get that on the radar if you're not already there for, uh, trade tap.
Um, but if you haven't already, like, dislike, and share. Um, Daniel knows all
the platforms that we're on. Um, Apple podcast, Spotify, Tik Tok,
YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, all the all the things.
makes it easy to to to find a a conversation piece. Um, but that's all I
got for now. Dan, you have anything else? No, it's just uh, you know, thanks for everyone for listening and let us know.
Uh, Nick, we definitely appreciate your comments today and we're going to put that down for a future podcast. And if
you ever wanted to come on and talk, you know, definitely reach out to us so that way uh, we can get you on here. I mean, sounds
like you got a lot to talk about, so might as well get you on here. Hey, and we're not above learning, man. Like, we
we love to learn and we we we don't know everything. We just talk about the issues that have come up or or that we
see coming up or that we've experienced. So, that we're on Spotify, too.
Anytime that we get someone on on the podcast where we can, you know, have some banter and some back and forth and
and and learn, we we we love those opportunities, guys.
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