The Huddle - Episode 194. The Skilled Labor Crisis: What’s Broken vs. What Actually Works
This week on The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose take a real, no-filter look at the skilled labor crisis in the flooring industry. From the gaps in training and recruitment to the disconnect between expectations and reality, they break down what’s broken — and more importantly, what’s actually working.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
The real reasons behind the labor shortage
Where training and education are falling short
Why some programs and companies are seeing success
What it takes to attract and retain the next generation
Practical steps the industry can take right now
This isn’t just another conversation about the problem — it’s about finding real solutions and pushing the industry forward.
Why This Episode Matters: At The Huddle Podcast, we believe in Forward Progress — and solving the labor crisis starts with honest conversations, accountability, and action.
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What is up, guys? Welcome back to The Huddle, the number one podcast in Flooring. We're here every week to help you guys gain forward progress in your career. Simply put, we're here to help you guys win. We uh love doing this podcast and love all the comments and followers. So we would ask that if you have not yet subscribed to our YouTube channel or um any of the social channels we are on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and such, please do so. That is what helps us get your topics uh that you guys send us out to uh the powers to be and help change our industry.
Today's sponsors is Trade Tap and the VTI. So, the VTI is released and we'll start sharing that here this next week and allowing everybody to get signed up. We are onboarding uh faster than we can keep up with at the moment. So, it's pretty freaking awesome. Um, and Trade Tap is the ecosystem. Trade Tap Pro comes out here in another month or so. That'll be the marketplace you formerly known as Go Carrera. So, love you guys. Hope you guys are doing well out there. Today's topic is the skilled labor crisis. What's broken versus what works.
This is a topic we end up on, I think, pretty often.
Uh, one of the things I would like to bring up is we call it a crisis. We say, uh, skilled labor crisis. And uh I think that it's becoming numb that we've been saying it long enough that people are numb to the Well, and you just have those guys that are always like, "Crisis, what crisis? I have work right now." Mhm. And it's like, well, they have work and or they have um uh to do it.
Yeah. They've got people to do it at the moment. What happens is nobody what what I see in talking to tons of people uh very involved in this part of the industry with Trade Tap's whole mission of being, you know, separating highquality installers from your beginners and uh hobbyist and and handymen and making it clear when you have a professional flooring installer on your project or doing your home. Um, so in all of my talks and and discussing this issue with multiple different, you know, flooring companies, manufacturers and such, the problem is they don't feel the pressure. What I see is the biggest problem is nobody feels the pressure when the pressure is not on. And when the pressure is on, it's they don't have time they feel to deal with it, right? Right.
So, it's a never- ending loop of nothing getting done because the flooring companies are not looking for new installers when they're or even upskilling their current installers when they are kind of slower, not everyone's working maybe uh those types of scenarios. And so, they don't deal with it because it's not a pressure on them. And then when it is a pressure and they they're scheduling out projects six months or they're too busy to even worry about it right now, right? Like worry about that.
I have to worry about this.
Exactly. And so it's this neverending loop of [ __ ] not getting done. Uh it it drives me nuts because I'm like when you're slow is a great time to implement new processes, new procedures, new ways of doing business to think outside the box.
And um I think with even this is even um prevalent or apparent in like the AI conversation um and people implement an AI tools um they're they're as long as they're sick and easy to use like you just get on Chad GPT and start using it then they'll they'll use it. But doing meaningful change in their business with AI, it seems to be the same thing. When they're busy, they're too busy to do that. And when they're slow, they don't see the need.
I was going to say it's just like any other business thing when you you see the need for it and it's you think that it's going to come easy, but guess what? It doesn't. It's you're going to work. And um so my our our epoxy guy was um I was sending him some stuff last night. What's up, Hai?
And uh he was like, "Man, you're still you're still over there working right now at the office?" And I was like, "Yeah, man. Like, we got a lot of stuff to do. I'm trying to get get stuff done." Mhm.
No, I wonder how much of it is that the time allocation, right? Like you got to sacrifice some of the things you want to do sometimes in order to get some of the things you need to do done.
Well, it's the good oldfashioned. I think it was Stephen Cubby who did the uh uh the time matrix or the the time quadrant you know important important and urgent urgent and unimportant and we as humans particularly in the flooring business I'd say specialty trades business uh in general live in that urgent area really sophisticated industry ries, you know, oil and gas, you know, like the oil industry, it's not they're always improving things in slow times, figuring out how can I turn this field into a pay field like a like a um you know a non-producing known reserve. How can I do that? And that's how you know different methods of drilling and different uh technologies happen. So, like as an industry, you can't let we always need to be improving. Um, I think that's one of the the things with skilled labor and you know, our labor uh crisis and we say a crisis. Hey, right now I don't feel a crisis because we're not that busy and my I've got guys texting me, hey, you got any work? Our area is kind of slow.
There's going to be a time when it's so crazy.
Had someone um stop by earlier and he said that the company that he was uh subbing for straight up got rid of every single Hispanic crew that they had.
They were just like done. Okay.
What for? I mean, come on. this news to me. I wasn't here. This breaking news now.
Was that uh just because they were slowing down and and they decided that it was it was uh time to lower their crews or what?
No, I think he said it was a new new management and he was just like that's not the route that he wanted to do. So, I think they had 12 of the Hispanic crews that they were just like, "Cut him off." So, he's he said that he's been uh it was I think it was like him and five or six guys and he said that he's just been trying to scrape by with just working by himself right now.
And I imagine that it has something to do with, you know, the way the industry is right now where it is a little slow, but at the same time, it's like it is. I have talked to a lot of flooring companies. There's some that are busy, but it's it's a little slow in the AC across the board, I think.
Um, but my the point is is it's not that. I mean, we've you can go back to a previous podcast and we were talking about how swamped we are needing guys. Like it you don't stay there. My whole point to all this is do when you're not when you don't have the pressure, you got to keep building. You got to keep improving. One of the things, you know, with a when you have a labor shortage, uh, you know, particularly the the key word here is skilled.
Um, the the best thing you can do is make sure that you're continuing your your efforts, your grassroots efforts. I mean, it's clear that the powers to be believe that this is going to be a major problem. And I say powers to be like Black Rockck just released, if you know who Black Rockck is, I think I may have said this on the last podcast as well, but they just put together a hundred billion with a B fund for um increasing the skilled trades. Now, this is a lot of probably uh wrapped up in electricians and plumbers as far as like what they see the need for because of data centers and such, but data centers need epoxy. They need epoxy striping. They have offices that need flooring.
Like you don't get away from that. Um ESD flooring, stuff like that that's in these data centers. One of the things that we see is when a big when big companies like a lot of the governments are putting aside skilled trade kind of uh subsidies as well in some manner grants, scholarships, this kind of thing. Um so we we need to like as an industry if we this is a time when you're a little bit slow to explore different methods and means. So, I just jotted down a few things. I'm sure you guys got some stuff, but grassroots efforts, which are taking place now, getting involved. Um, there's a, you know, when there's trainings in your area, if if you're a flooring contractor, help these training entities out to fill their their course load um or their their potential uh participants. I mean, Daniel, you can speak to this. you've been in packed classes and you've been in not packed classes.
Having those packed classes is kind of the key to all this, you know, working and then having more training uh available to people. So, we there's going to be a training coming around our area. I'm going to be trying to, you know, rustle up support at the high schools and and the co the local colleges. Um, so I think those grassroots efforts should not be looked at as like small-time efforts because a lot of industries still have even massive industries still have grassroots efforts because there's a reason that those work. You're meeting people where they're at, you know. So that's my initial thought of, you know, kind of one of the uh one of the things and let me caveat this. I say that because I had heard plenty of times when you know the FCEF or something was doing some training in an area and the retailers around there are not like supporting it.
If you can't get involved actively, at least give the FCEF a hundred bucks or whatever their sponsorship is and help them out, especially if they're doing a training and they That's the thing local colleges.
You're talking about money, right? But that's the thing. It's word of mouth is free. Just, oh, you you need to upskill, let me do this. Oh, you're looking for um a new career. They actually are doing this in town here coming up. And you know, we we we do that all the time. I mean, you have to and says at some point it's not about the national nationality or race is doing it. It's about who's willing to do it and do it right. Yeah.
And getting educated and be professional, right? And all this stuff goes goes hand in hand. What's up, Carlos?
Yeah. I think at the bottom the end of the day I I'm surprised to hear that it from your uh story earlier like we don't I I don't understand that to be honest.
Neither do I. Dude brain correctly.
Do you believe in too many questions in the air?
All I care about and all you should care about is are they capable of doing the work? Do they manage their business well so that you don't have to, you know, are they professional would be the easiest way to say say that, right? Are they presentable and and do they follow your safety protocols and and such? I mean, can they do the job and do it professionally and do it um professionally from a quality standpoint and present themselves professionally because they are representing you, your your subcontracting partners are representing you on the job site. Um, so yeah, to me it's it's like pretty clear. you you go off of credentials and capabilities and not anybody's uh nationality or race. That's pretty pretty shallow um that's pretty shallow like view of it.
And that was, you know, that was just what he told me, right? We don't know what happened behind the scenes either.
Yeah, they could have been uh you know, terrible uh at communication or whatever. I mean, I who knows like and and just like like you you ask people, right? And you're like, "Um, okay. Well, what are you comfortable installing? What what don't you want to install?" And everyone's first thing that they say is, "Oh, I install everything." Okay, so you can do this. What's that? Oh, so you do this? No, I don't do that. Okay, well, then you don't install everything.
Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of of having the VTI honestly out there where you can just QR them and see what they actually can do. And then that's the the record of truth. Uh if they what I tell guys is they say they could do something, but there's no proof other than what you're going to give me some pictures or like what is your proof that you can do what you said? Ken Balon's pictures in my camera roll too, so I can show people.
This is what we do like this.
Yeah. So, you know, these the the from a real big standpoint, I think that understanding where we're at is is going to be really one of the biggest things as a industry that we can do. But because once you know where you're at, you know how many people, you know, you can start implementing some of these things and really know uh how many people you need to bring in. I think um from the one study that I heard, and it's been probably close to a decade ago, that we were losing five to 6,000 a year or something like that. And and you know what's even crazier is that the this boomer era is about to hit us hard with all these retirements. And I know and that's the thing that I I it's going to make the labor side even smaller because all these guys that are kind of on the fence of I don't really want to install anymore are going to have all these opportunities and then it's like all right well there goes all the seasoned installers. What's going to happen now? And that again, that's where the these programs come in where you do have to support them.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I was I was looking at my phone the other day and I was going through the contacts and realizing that I have people in my phone uh in the trades, not just flooring installers, in the trades from for 20 plus years. Like 20 years ago, they were getting to that age. We're getting closer to retirement. And it's I think it's a it's construction in general, right? It's the skilled trades in general that that are going to be hitting getting hit hard and struggling. And you just that I think is why the the the different business or like grants and big money is going towards the trades. they see what's getting I think we called cried wolf a little early as an as a you know skilled trade industry because we get busy and everybody was like I don't have enough installers and I I know that's the fact I talked to plenty of retailers that still have install issues meaning they they tell customers I can sell you the carpet and take your money today but I can't install for six weeks well that's going to get you're going to lose sales that way um at the end of the day as these boomers are retiring something has to backfill. That's why it's a crisis is because the backfill process um we're working really hard at trade tap to release the job board which is called Jumpstart and every uh buddy will have access to Jumpstart and it will be full of new installers. Go on there. I'll let you know when it releases. It's not far off and you'll be able to hire uh subscribe to it. It's 99 bucks for the entire year.
So like one a single subscription for the entire year. You make one higher off of there and you've you've covered that. So it's super cheap for a reason. We want to see the ecosystem kind of work. bringing in new blood, getting them placed with installers on the VTI that are quality guys, training them up, and let that process of kind of uh similar to, you know, an apprentice process happen. Uh the the you guys have had the same problem we have had is hiring new people and where to find them back in the day has been incredibly difficult. We want to try as best as we can to support all of the early trainings and getting those people who have shown some initiative to be in our industry give them a get them hired and uh I think that piece the placement piece is really uh important. Yeah, Jorge says that it's how it is in some places. The best of the best should have a deep schedule. And I don't think Paul's saying that you shouldn't have a deep schedule. I think the the bigger thing is once you do have that deep schedule, it's getting more people in to do more stuff cuz it's like, yes, I'm booked out over, you know, two, three months, but I still need to fit in every everyone else because if I don't, then I'm just going to be losing business anyways.
Yeah. And go ahead, Jose.
I was gonna say that's that's why the uh um one of the reasons I think the the the subcontract the 1099 is is still popular versus having in-house employees is you know the construction industry does fluctuate quite a bit and it's easier to tell someone uh we don't have any work right now for you and then let them deal with it themselves than it is to tell employees hey you know we don't have anything right now. let's either find something or you know unemployment warehouse again.
Yeah. Or Yeah. Or warehouse work, right?
So it's I think u that's probably to me what is probably the most unattractive thing about uh our industry is the ups and the downs and the uncertainty. Um so it's well I know plenty of installers. have paid well over a million dollars a year. Mhm. With three or four guys that, you know, have if they reinvest in themselves and their guys and training and such, they they they are going to stay busy. They're going to be the ones that are busy now, right?
Uh when it's a little bit slower. hot says that it breaks them that some people struggle and can't afford to get training, but it's those people that don't look at it as running a business. They there those are the people that are still like this is just my job. I go do my job. I go home. Um kind of what we were saying, you know, earlier when we were talking, it's I'm we're we're still have to put in the work outside of work as a business owner, right? Well, and it's a lot of this like they get enough work. They get enough work because they're cheaper than other people. When the VTI takes over, which I am determined that it will, at the end of the day, it will, you're going to be judged on your credentials and and and your your reputation. And if you have good marks in those areas, you're going to win more work than anybody. It's going to put the the hobbyist and the um the the uh what do it handyman out of our business. Let they can go do whatever they want. But you know, a professional flooring installer who's trained and certified and all that should not be competing against a handyman. They only have to do that because there's no clear differentiating factor between the two in the consumer's mind. When you create that now, you're going to people like Jorge are going to all of the people like Jorge are going to get busy. Jorge has also a very distinct advantage in being very good at communication, very very good at like those types of things. Some of the guys that are highly skilled may not have the highest level of, you know, they can still be professional without being the best uh marketer of themselves. We need to help those good guys always staying busy. That's my goal.
He says that we've got a lot of middle-ag installers that use help to be better. And by middle age, he means 35 to 45. when you and that the crazy thing is is when we go to these events, they look at me almost 40, right? And they're like, "Oh, you're still a baby." And it's like, I know.
And we don't like I've been in it so long, I don't feel like a baby, but based on, you know, everyone else's age, yeah, I can understand where they're coming from.
Let's look at this a little bit differently. Horge, middle age of a working career in a in a professional career. Let's just say you start a career at 18 and you try to strive to be done by 65. So it should be middle age should be a little bit of a different age there, brother. It should be 30 years old, not 35. Come on now. 30 to 40 is your middle of your career age, right? Uh but I'm just trying to not make myself feel like trying to make make yourself feel a little younger.
Scott said he's one of them, but I don't know if he's talking about being middle-aged or being a boomer.
I'll put you in the middle age, Scott.
You know, Daniel is I'm sorry. Is it's gonna open up doors for people who are aging out, right? Like maybe they are aging out. They don't they and these are the individuals who didn't necessarily see a need for training and um education, but now they have they're aging out, their body's aging out, there's nothing left to do, and that's all they know. They need to try to get their foot in the door with some training and get some education under their belt real quick so that way they can enter that uh um that social queue for for what's next and they can make a couple bucks after retirement.
Well, there's a lot of different ways that none of us are ever going to retire if we're going to be completely honest. We are too we'll never get rid of the mindset that we have now. We're always going to have to do something, right? If if I'm not doing this today, I'm gonna find something to do tomorrow. That's why you want to have some, you know, other things that are possible within the industry. Oh, you got to go.
Oh, no. I've got I I don't got to go till 4. I got to be there 430. He's an hour behind, man. You know, um so I want to add to that, Daniel. You know, we were at Home Depot the other day and my son was there and he was helping load up and um Nick had made a comment to him about, "Hey, you're only you're 12." And he was like, "I'm 13." And some the ladies overheard it and they started laughing. A little bit later, he was loading up a curt fell off. And I was like, "Don't worry, dude. You're only 13. You don't understand. But when you're 14, you'll know how to do this better." Right? I was making a joke and she said, "He looks like a really good young man. he looks like he stays busy. I said, "He's one of the best. He's my right-hand man. He's one of the best helpers ever." Um, and she was said, "Well, he's if he stays busy, he'll be fine." I said, "Anyone who doesn't stay busy isn't really trying." And she was like, "What?" I said, "If you're not busy, you're not trying." And she was like, "I like that. Can I can I use that? Can I tell my my grandkids that?" I'm like, "Sure." Well, even in these slow times, what the to kind of polish off that point as well as others is that in the when you're when the industry slows down, when installs slow down, that is the time when the lower the guys that are not as skilled, at least that that do work for retailers or dealers, they are the ones who sit, right? you're going to use your best crews and try to keep them busy. And so that will always happen. So it benefits every installer to be as skilled, as knowledgeable, and as prepared as they can be. Um, and the industry does have a lot of options out there for you to tap into. It will get better if you engage as an installer, meaning you you you um are reaching out to the industry uh training like the NFCT or CFI to um you know upskill yourself, learn a new skill, learn a new trade. That's when you want to do it. you you won't be slow if you try and if you just try, you know, whether that's you're a carpet layer and you're a little slow, learn some other stuff. I I could tell you one of the uh other things I'd like to point out is during slow times, the people who are slow are the ones who are one trick ponies that do, you know, carpet tile. They all they want to do is like carpet tile on vinyl base or something. the ones that stay busy can do multiple different floorings. Um, so that that's another uh challenge to installers is be a little more uh dimensional than one and and give yourself a chance to stay busy in the slower times. That being and yeah, just I just want to make sure it's clear that when what you added on to that is perfect uh for what I said about if you're not trying or if you're not busy, you're not trying. And it doesn't mean like have work on the table. It means like like you said, trying to trying to increase some skills, skills, some knowledge. Um, and you know, I I just can't I've never been that person to sit on the couch and not like tinker and mess with things because I wanted to get better. And what it did is it made me more excited to go out and tell tell everyone that, hey, we have a new skill. We can do uh, you know, we can do this now and let's teach everybody this. And that was that doesn't start by sitting on your couch. That starts by let me figure out what I need to learn to be better to offer my market a little bit more so that way I can hopefully absorb a little bit more of the workload that I know is available.
Right. The better the skill level, the more work you get. Who would have thought?
Yeah. Kevin Kevin then back backs says master of one, not a hack of many. And I agree. If you're a true master of a single skill, you're going to stay busy regardless as well.
Well, you that's the thing is if you're that good, then you don't have to stay bit that busy all the time, right? You can take some of that time off.
Yeah. And I specifically stated um that car if you're a one trick pony and like the the stuff that most installers can do like carpet tile and vinyl base if that is you and I you guys have had it. Look, I've run a flooring company. You know, I've had plenty of guys come in here. they get they get uh you know they want to get a uh loaded into our system as a subcontractor and then they they look at work orders and they're like where's the I only they only bid on like uh or put numbers or show interest in the big easy projects. They don't you know what I mean? And then they're like well we're not getting any work. I'm like, "Well, you're not you're not even interested in some of the work out there. You're like only looking at the big carpet tile jobs and the stuff like that." Well, there's going to be other better known installers to us with better VTI than you that are bidding on that work and I'm going to give them that work. That's all there is to it. You know, the easy projects got to be earned, man.
Well, that's what I was more structuring that comment around. Kevin, I mean, being a master of say carpet or something like that. Like Daniel said, not only do you stay busy as busy as you want, you also can charge the amount that it that it takes to have a, you know, a flooring career and not a flooring job. So, I agree with you, buddy.
Scott says, "Flash Cove Heat Weld. Baby, I agree. That was my my trajectory. I went through uh carpet. Uh and then I was like got my hands on some she was like I'm one of only two two guys in the company that are working or one I'm on one crew of two uh working on this stuff. And I was learning from a guy that was really good and thought this is where I want to be. I I can do carpet uh at least the cheap and easy stuff. uh if it's if it gets too hard, someone else can do it. I want to do this sheet model thing. And that's where I started doing and started going and I stayed as busy as I wanted when I was in Soul and she bottle.
Yeah, it's easy to stay as busy as you want when you have that I don't want to say the market cornered, right? But it felt that way. I mean, literally there there's just not a ton of of guys doing it. you know, and here great training for you guys. Anybody on this call that doesn't do flash co and heat weld ought to be uh scanning this QR code to get down to Calhoun and and uh do some education on some flash coing and heat welding. It's a certification out with with me. Come hang out with me and Scott.
Go hang out in flatlay already. This will add to it, right? Like if if you do a lot of flatlay and you're you're familiar make you better at flatlay too.
Yes, it will. There's some trick like you're going to learn some stuff. I guarantee it. And if you don't come and teach me something. I'm all about that too.
Yeah.
So, uh as we're moving through the topic, obviously it's a multiaceted topic. It's you there's not a single thing that is going to solve the problem. But we all have to be ambassadors of the industry, ambassadors of of the programs and the trainings and the entities out there doing stuff to improve it. So hiring the new people and having you know uh some level and we use the VTI what used to be known as a hammer rating to make sure that we got good guys training the the other guys. Uh we have some guys that are not as skilled and we would not put a brand new guy with him. We want the new guys to learn from the certified guys and the the the established uh crews. So, you know, having some system of criteria for your crews so you know who's good at what, not just a feeling. That's another thing I I recognize in the industry. A lot of companies are just like they know them personally but outside that when they that or if that crew gets sick or whatever um it's like what is the what is your fallback for continuously improving your installation ability and um you know having having a way to know what your crews are capable of and incentivizing them to get better as a flooring company, you got to have workforce development in some manner. And we we have almost abandoned that because of the 1099 subcontractor world. That ain't going away, by the way. That's just is what it is. It it's not going away. So, you have you still have a duty to create opportunities for your subs to become better. That doesn't mean you have to house the deal, but getting involved with the NTCA if you're in the tile or CFI or NFCT, getting involved with them. Just get on their mailing list at the least and make sure that you're you're you're in the know of what's coming down and what's what's available. And these guys, I know CFI will do it. I know the NFCT will do it. If you can gather enough people to a training, they'll come train at your place or a place of your liking in your neighbor in your uh community. So, it's that's where I my rally cry to all flooring contractors is you just because you use subs does not mean you don't get involved with workforce development. Those subs need good helpers. support the FCEF, support PFT, support the college programs. They need good helpers that will eventually be good installers. We've done this and it works if you just put some effort in. But just expecting them to do uh and I say them, I mean your crews to just go get self-trained and and not have any like guidance or any parameters. Um, that's where, you know, I think that's a a big uh opportunity that's being missed is having a workforce development strategy for your company.
And I mean, look at I I got to give shout out to Jesus, you know, he said early on in this conversation, when we're slow, we train. I mean, that's a a very busy subcontractor out there that's showing the other subs how to do it. He got highly trained. He got involved in the industry. He started going to events, but he made sure he was getting trained and trained and trained. And then he's making sure his guys are getting training. And when they're slow, they train. And then when they're busy, they have more capability because they're higher trained. It is a great thing to do, but we are plagued honestly with handymen and part- timerrs and hobbyists saying they do our jobs. Saying that they are are skilled enough to do our jobs.
Robin, no one cares that you're in Florida. Just got down to sunny Florida. I do. I do, brother. Hey, you know what? I'm not too jealous.
It's a pretty freaking fantastic day here in Witchah. It is, you know, it's it's not bad here either, but I'm I'm saying that. But I'm going to be in Florida in just over a week. So, there you go. It's cold.
You know, um, Paul, just to add on to what you just said and the compliment for for Jesus is all it takes is one installer, one person to go learn something brand new and be excited about it and be willing to share that information with their co-workers, uh, employees or even their their friends who are subs along with them. It's just one person to be excited about it that wants to share that knowledge. And it's I think uh I don't remember when it was a while ago, but we everybody's like, "Oh, you're our competition." It's like, "No, we're not competition, dude. We're in it together. We we have a skill set. You need to learn. You want to come and learn? Come to our office and we'll put our you put our pads on. We'll get in the the warehouse with you and show you what what we know. You struggling with a a tip or trick, come on over. We'll share some information." We've always been like that. Or go to a job site. you know, and and help out.
We we had a call from um someone that I mean, we didn't even know what was this like just over a year ago, something like that. I don't even remember, but you know, he was in town and he's like, "Hey, um I'm calling around because I'm I can't get this heat welding stuff uh correct. Uh do you have any tips and tricks?" And I'm talking to him. I'm like, "Look, dude. I'm just going to grab my tools and I'm going to come over there because uh it's easier to do this and then it is to try and explain everything over the phone. Got over there and then I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is not working." And then it was, "All right, I do have these tools. Come by, grab them tomorrow and uh you know, just just get your job done." You know, everyone's on a timeline.
Yeah. So, oh, are what are you guys are you guys in in Florida for a training though?
He he must be in uh Florida. But then check this out from Raleigh. He says, "I get I get to speak at dealers. Anything you want me to add?" Yeah, workforce development and the VTI. uh you already kind of uh know what my response will be is if every installer is credentialized and then it's only comparing installer versus installer based on their ability and their skill level to do a job. You're you're getting rid of people like hobbyists and and handymen that we're competing with at the moment. Particularly, this is true in residential more than commercial for sure, but it still it happens in both. It's it's the Facebook marketplace that's kind of driving that. You go on there and you'll find every single comment. Hey, I'm looking for someone that does this and it's like handyman, construction, everything. like all these comments, no flooring companies, and let let those handymen deal with whatever they're going to deal with, right? Because if they if they wanted a professional, they would get on Google and start contacting a professional.
Well, I don't know that there's there's just not a good way. And I mean there is it's coming. It's it's here now and it's uh gonna catch fire, but there's not been a good way for people to they go to Angie. They go to like these are attorneys and doctors. They don't know crap about our industries uh in construction. They just get somebody that they they you sometimes it'll be a referral base. I've heard nightmares of people getting people off of Facebook and getting them off of Craigslist and these things and uh you know then then you get the pictures of and and still if you get in Facebook which is some it's it's part funny part depressing and part inspiring but the depressing part is when you see people like posting somebody's picture of a floor that's just jacked up and they're like, "Yeah, I bid on this job and now this person's asking me to come fix it." I personally have been involved in those scenarios multiple times and the the idea is just like get rid of those guys. The guys that are doing work like that should not be doing professional flooring. Uh they need to go get trained. They may have some skill. They need to get understand how to install this uh these products the right way uh per industry standards and per manufacturers's recommendations and do it the right way and we got to get them out of our business. Then the people who are skilled, who are uh capable will flourish and have the room to uh you know when you're competing with it with when one really good guy's competing with another really good guy, that's not my problem. If I'm bidding against a really good even when I was an installer, if I was up against somebody really good, that's one thing. Okay, it's two good guys going up against competing for work. I'm good with that. What I'm not good with is competing with somebody who has no proof. No, no, they they they couldn't even tell you the basics, but they're winning the job because they were cheaper. And we did a in fact we did one of our podcasts on one of the blue collar cruises that showed a study and it was an extensive study showing that people will pay 70% uh that were surveyed would pay more if they have proof that the person's better or if the crew is better or the company's better. So providing that proof and not letting it be guess work is kind of my life's calling I feel.
And Kevin has some good advice here too on how to get to that spot. It's, you know, his advice is to find someone you feel has done well in the industry and ask them for guidance. Everyone needs a role model or, you know, a mentor. And I mean, I call for advice and vice versa. Yeah. And and that that's the thing, right?
You know, Rin, I can call Kevin for advice is when once you start getting into the industry like that, there's there's always someone that's been through whatever you're going through. Yeah. And and you don't have to be like, you know, heck, just get on the huddle and get to know some of these guys that are here every week. they're taking time out listen to us chat about different topics com uh you know adding to the conversation it's that easy and you'll get to know the Scots and the Rollins and the Kevin and you know Jorgees and you can get to know these guys and reach out and I agree with Kevin 100% if you can get a role model even if you don't have personal like connection with them you can still follow them follow their careers on social and see what they're doing different and I the really good guys you'll see them at trainings you'll see them there y working like you'll see them doing job site stuff but you also then see them at training again and that is um that is the key and I think that having a a good role model Kevin is is paramount to success not just a good teacher but a role model. And I I think that you could connect with some people to find out how they made their career what it is if you admire it. And if you do not, then you can find someone. Um I know that's easier said than done in a lot of local communities when you start talking about lo your local area, but you can always that's why I we always talk about it on the huddle about getting involved in the industry. Yeah, Jim says his mentor was Doug Reed, Mannington Flash Cove trainer. It was like having a grandpa that knew everything about floors.
And that that's how I feel sometimes going into some of these events, right?
You you they're just talking and it's like, man, how do you just know all this stuff?
And then the same and the crazy thing is is that then I come back here and then some of the employees look at me when I'm talking and they're like, man, how do you know all this stuff? And it's like that's just that's what you need. You need other people to look up to.
It's uh what was it? Oh man, I don't know how to do that. I can't figure it out. Call Jose.
He'll figure it out in like five minutes. Make you mad. But it's just the experience, right?
It's just uh you know, it's something that that we all learn from everybody in our group and our people and we retain that information. And you know, it's like that uh those little videos where the guy saves a piece of wood, right? And there's a and he's like, "Oh, I need a piece of wood about this big." He goes, "I got it." Runs into his shed, goes and digs through it, grabs it, brings it, puts it under there, and works perfect, right? That's information for us for people who are passionate about what they do. They save those little pieces and th those nuggets like Paul says all the time and and they saved them for special occasions to put to use for for occasions like that and questions like that and and mentoring and and I can't wait for some of that information to ever come back up. Like I like helping and sharing information.
Well, not everyone does, I think. And and you got to get I was gonna say this comment from Lanny kind of is the point, right? You can lead a horse to water, so to speak. You can't make them drink.
People do have to learn to invest in themselves. But I think hearkening back to what Kevin said is they got to be inspired. They got to have some reason to want to improve themselves. If we are just sitting around saying this business is going to run your knees and you're it's tough and blah blah blah and we're not doing anything to change that, then that's what people hear. And truth is this business has served me very very well over the years. And I love the people in it. I love the industry itself. I love that it is high-skilled. We just need to separate that out.
Inspire people to want to be better. Put mechanisms in place that encourage people to be better. Encourage people to want to improve. And then you can be just like Jorge says here. you can be so good that you don't have to advertise. Have all the have others sell your service, you and your service for you. Uh he he's a big believer in that. Obviously, you can tell uh he he says he can't express it enough. Be the best or at least try. And you know, we've had conversations with other people about that, too, right? Because they're like, I don't want to be arrogant, so how do I, you know, tell people that that I'm the best? And I always go back to where it's like, well, the best people never really say that they're the best. It's always everyone else that's telling you, right? And um you know, I had a conversation. I don't even I think it was at Tai and someone was like, "Oh yeah, I you know, you're you're the best at this." And I'm like, "I'm not the best. Like I I I know I can be better." And he was like, "Man, can you just just take the compliment?" And it's like, "Thank you." you. But at the same time, I I do know that I'm not the best.
Look, I've messed up enough times to learn what not to do. That's really all it is, you guys. Well, and and you can short change that. We all had similar paths. It's not like we all came in the industry highly trained. Like, we went out and screwed some stuff up first. I know I did. We went out and jacked up some stuff. We're trying to help. And the mess up thing is is that like if we would have thought about it back in the day, we should have taken pictures of all our mess ups, but that's not something that you're trying to remember. Yeah, we don't take pictures of that.
I remember I remember Jim says that the the pay rates need to come up because the to get the young guys in the business and it's not an easy fix.
No, it's not an easy fix. That's the I think that's the whole paradigm, right?
There is a fix. It is not easy. It's not easy.
It the the fix is having good quality installers only competing with good quality installers because then you have like-minded people competing with like-minded people. When you are competing with somebody who thinks training is stupid and you're certified out the gills, there's separation. You're not there. You got to show the separation or like Jorge said have others show the uh separation. There is a way now to do that with the VTI and you know there you will be getting your cards here soon. We just ordered all that stuff. So, if you are uh on the old go Carrera and you're going to be merged over to the VTI, you will be getting your physical card to go out and be able to show, hey, QR my, you know, look at my VTI and see my level of skill versus the guy. What's that guy got?
You know, what's that guy got that that that you're com that I'm competing against? ask him for his VTI and then you will be a better informed consumer.
That question for you, Paul, after you're done with that, my bad. No, go ahead.
So, when you you say like um when you're competing against someone who who you feel is is another good installer or good in in that discipline, is it really competing? Right. Like every time that we we I would say go headtohead with someone like that and we know we are there's always a phone call. It's like hey are you guys checking this out? Like we are well I don't want to be too far off of you like at this point it's it's merit that is winning the job and not dollars and cents and and usually there's a partnership there too where good luck brother like if you need help with it let me know. we're willing to help and and vice versa if you win the project. And I think that you know that that steel sharpened steel uh thing comes into play when when we are
Yeah. But ultimately, you know, in your own area, there's only it's only so far you can take that honestly, right? There's only so much help you can give to a competitor without cutting your own legs off.
Correct. The the fact is is you don't want your ambition and your drive to be better to benefit others in a way that if they're not matching the effort meaning they're not out trying to get trained they're not out they don't have a workforce development program you know these kinds of things the that's what I'm getting at is not that and you are competing if you are both pricing the thing. That doesn't mean it can't be a friendly competition. And it's much friendlier when you have really good guys competing with other really good guys because at least I know you guys w have put in the money, put in the effort. If I'm bidding against you, I'm a happy guy. That doesn't mean I'm going to win. But if I was to be bidding against If Stuart Oh, you better talk [ ] though. You better talk [ ] That's for sure.
uh preferred flooring, I would be happy because I know I'm not bidding against a company that just hires the cheapest guy and the cheapest guy doesn't know any better and blah blah blah. It has to start at the grassroots in my opinion. I do like what Kevin just said, the best lessons come from uh some of your worst failures. That is true, but that assumes that you know enough to understand why the failure happened. Well, when I say I messed stuff up, brother, I'm talking about I messed stuff up and didn't even know how I did it. It's just the same that kind of goes with what Lanny says right here. You know, there's some people in there in the in the industry that don't want responsibility. They just want to be where they're at and then keep on moving along. And what we we need those people, right? That's funny. Chasing craftsmanship and those are the people that you you want to help support so they can help them help themselves, he says.
Right. And yes, but also I was also one of those people that never thought that I'd go as far as I am into the industry right now. Right. So, it's um approaching people with just that mindset of you may they may feel a certain way right now doesn't mean that they're not destined for something else. And that's where that mentorship comes back in.
And I have found we've had a few guys that uh came up through and they started doing well, they are just scared to be in charge. Yes. um that you can try to train out, teach them, but to be honest with you, there's there's Bye, Denise.
Good luck. Good luck with the storm.
Um but the truth is is that those people if they if they can't kind of get out of the shell to be a leader, to have helpers put under them, hey, that's okay. just keep, you know, like you said, Daniel, you need some people who are going to be happy doing those those jobs. Otherwise, it's a constant revolving door. Some of the best crews are guys who have a a supreme like head head guy crew and he's got a really really good guy that could be a crew leader if he wanted. But still, them two working together with a couple of helpers, those are some of the best crews out there.
Yep, they sure are. And and the the synergy, it creates a synergy, right? Everybody knows their role, understands the role, and it's a team effort. And and and those are the guys that that add the value to that crew and can help you scale.
And still, if you're getting paid enough because you are proven to be uh responsible and good at getting the job done and doing high quality work and communication, all the stuff that makes a good installer. Well, then you're able to pay a little bit better than anybody else to your help. And those guys are are fine being at that level. There's nothing wrong with that. We have several guys that have been here for well I'd say several we have a few guys that have been here for a long time that are still on cruise. They don't lead crews and it's they got to show the leadership and we we do some training with it but if it's not you got to also it was kind of mentioned in the comments earlier you got to you got to take the initiative at some point. you know, you can only train so much before the if the initiative is not there, you'll just be a really good number two or something on a crew. And there's nothing wrong with that. You have to realize that at some point at least you're doing good work, you're making good money. Well, when when we talk over here, right, we say that the the number two is typically the best person that you got there because the number one's running around handling everything. So, you have to have that number two there to in order to be more hands-on than anything. So, as as a a number two, there there's a lot of pride in that, I think.
Yeah. You're putting stuff down and doing, you know, maybe you're not uh laying out the entire uh progression of the entire project if you're doing a big job. uh but where you're going next and doing all that communication with the project foreman or superintendent but you're the one doing you know layouts on the jobs and I was on the guy right here I was his number two for a really long time and then he kept on bringing me hey I'm doing this come and learn how to do this hey I'm going to talk to these people come learn how to talk to these people yeah and it was just you got to well you want to give them the opportunity I would, you know, he Jim kind of, you know, touches on this a little bit when he says that not all guys are leaders. It can be cultivated, but not always. Managing people becomes a tax. Uh, for some of us, that's when I say, man, like one guy with a really good helper and you can make a really good living if you're highly skilled in this business.
Yeah. And that that's where we I go back to like EOS and stuff too where it's like sometimes it's the the right person wrong seat, wrong person, right seat type of deal, right?
Thanks Manny. We appreciate the the words, man. But you just have to find that balance and once you notice that someone is in the wrong seat, move them over to that right one. Oh, and and that's where I I kind of get where, you know, where I came from, where it's like I don't think that who did number two work for.
You got to be a little older to get that one.
Yeah. I I I never thought that I'd be in the position where I'm at now, but it was this guy up here pushing me, right? like you're going to do this, you're going to do that. And the same thing with baby sister. It was me pushing her. She's like, I don't know about this. And it's like, nope, you got this. Like, just ask me some questions, but I know you can handle it. Yeah. Hey, all you good number twos out there, you guys have more impact on the schedule and the completion and the the progress of a project than you think. You have so much impact on that. Well, most if you're really good, you probably know, you know, and a lot of those guys are um a lot of the crews set it up to where it's a split of the pay.
Um I businesswise, uh there's a lot I mean, we could continue for another hour on how to run the business properly as an installer, but you know, um yeah. Hey, by the way, um go check out Coverings if you're uh interested in the tile and stone industry. I've been to this show a few well several times over the years. Haven't been in several years, but it's always pretty awesome. But Daniel and Jorge are going to be there uh shooting the huddle. And so get out there and see those guys and hang out with them and and add some content to the the huddle they shoot out there.
Yeah. So yeah, we'll be there. Um, thanks to the to the NTCA for, you know, getting a hold of us and saying that they wanted some someone out there. So, I mean, this is our first time. Some coverage at coverings.
Yeah, coverage at coverings. That's not a bad title. Ashlin, let's look that up.
Yeah. So, go check it out. Um, and uh, you'll get if if you are just even curious about the tile uh, industry, uh, this is a great place to learn about it. The NTCA really shows out there, at least in years past, and hanging out with other tile crews. It's it's it's a different type of show than if you've never went and you you've went to Ty, but uh it's super duper fun and and you should get out there and check it out.
Carlos said he would like to go. We'll be there, man. Get out there, Carlos.
All right, guys. Well, we have come up to the end of the podcast. I want to thank everybody for all the comments. It was um very busy in the comment section today. We really appreciate that and we appreciate everybody's uh input and insight. Uh we learn from you guys too. So that's why we've always ran the huddle this way where it's really just a conversation. Uh we have a topic. Uh we're going to try to do our best to bring as much expertise to that topic as possible. But you guys are the key because you challenge us. You you call us on our stuff. Kevin's great at that, by the way. So keep it up, Kevin. one of the best.
It allows us to Yeah, Kevin's our partner.
Kevin's our partner. Um, but it it allows us to uh, you know, do this every single week when you guys show up and and show out. So, appreciate you guys. Uh, keep supporting our sponsors and, you know, uh, get trained, get involved. Let's go. And, um, for those of you who are going to make it out to coverings, make sure to say hi to Daniel and and, uh, Jorge. It's going to be a great time. There we go. There it is. All right. Don't forget it.
Forget to like and subscribe uh to all of our content. Um and uh go show some love over on YouTube. We're going to try to really build that channel this year. Uh we've been on multiple channels. We get a lot of views and we're going to try to condense down and hopefully uh increase our YouTube presence over the next uh year. So, please specifically go over to YouTube and follow the huddle there and uh subscribe. So, with that, we will let you guys go till next week and uh have a great week. Enjoy the weather. Except you, Denise. Be careful out there. And and Rand don't enjoy the weather.
Yeah. And Rand don't enjoy. Yes, it's Miller time. Jim Jim, it is officially Miller time. All right, guys. We'll catch you guys next week.
