The Huddle - Episode 187. Why The Trades Matter: Flooring as a Career Path

Flooring isn’t just a job — it’s a career with real opportunity.

This week on The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose sit down with Chad Swift, Kaye Whitener, and newly graduated installer Adam Miller for an honest conversation about what it really looks like to build a future in the flooring industry.

From education and mentorship to real-world jobsite experiences, this episode highlights the power of skilled trades and why flooring deserves recognition as a long-term, rewarding career path — especially for the next generation.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Why flooring offers stability, growth, and real career potential

• What it’s like entering the trade as a new installer

• How training and mentorship shape long-term success

• The role education plays in building confident professionals

• Why the industry needs to do more to attract and support new talent

Whether you’re just getting started, considering the trades, or already deep in the industry, this episode offers perspective, encouragement, and insight into where flooring careers can lead.

Why This Episode Matters: At The Huddle Podcast, we believe in Forward Progress — empowering installers, educators, and leaders to grow the industry by investing in people.

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At The Huddle, we’re all about driving Forward Progress—empowering seasoned installers, contractors, and flooring enthusiasts to grow, innovate, and lead in their craft. Whether you’re looking for real conversations, actionable insights, or inspiration to take your career to the next level, The Huddle is your home for real discussions that matter.

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What is up team? Welcome to the huddle. The number one flooring podcast or

podcast and flooring as I usually would say we're here every week to help you gain forward progress in your career.

Simply put, we're here to help you win. For all our new viewers, welcome to the

team. Uh today is a awesome uh podcast. We're really excited to bring you the

topic of why the trades matter and specifically flooring as a career path.

With me this week, we have some special guests, Miss K. Whitner, Chad Swift, and

Adam Miller. Did I say everybody's name right? You did. You did. Good job.

All right. One for one. Um, so yeah,

wanted to give everybody a quick chance. Uh Jose is going to join us uh maybe a

little bit later. Uh but you know Daniel, the staple of the huddle and uh

wanted to go around the room, maybe introduce ourselves. Um so yeah, why don't we start with you,

Kay, tell us a little bit about you and the FCF and what your guys' mission is

there. Okay. Well, thanks Paul for having me. Uh I'm Kay Whitner. I'm executive

director of the floor covering education foundation. uh 42 years this year in the

industry, second generation. So, it's been a little time. Um I always joke and tell everybody I started when I was two,

but uh you know, that was a little funnier years ago. It's it doesn't get quite the laughs it does today. I I

think they're just like, "Yeah, right. Right." Um so the the floor covering education foundation was put together to

address the uh installation crisis or labor shortage for the floor covering

industry. Uh as a second generation person I can tell you guys we did not

really have a big strong um influence out for the next generation to even

consider our industry or even know we exist. is I think Jim Aaron has has used

the example many of times that when he spoke to a group that were going into skilled trades is that even a thing? So

we knew that that's that's not uncommon. We we would hear it a lot of times but

uh I think we've been extremely successful in being able to put some great programs in place and at least let

a new generation know we exist. So we we were put together to bring about awareness of the industry uh recruit

scholarship training and help with job placement. Awesome. Well, uh just as a side note to

what you just said, we ran a survey um

few years back and asked actual like installers if they're

certified or not and if they were not, why not? And the answer was they didn't know how like they didn't know where to

go. Like who does that? So even people in the trade uh we've come a long way since then but you know the awareness of

flooring which blows my mind when you think of the the labor value in the

flooring industry is around 21 to2 billion dollar of flooring

labor not not the materials just the labor side and we're that unknown. So

anyway, just a sidebar there. Chad, how about you introduce yourself and you're

you brought Adam along with you and I' I'd like to hear a little bit more about him as well. So kick us off, buddy.

Yeah, so we're uh retail store in Great Falls, Montana. Um like K, I'm uh

multi-generational. So my my grandpa had a tile store in Selenus, California back in the day. Uh Neil, my dad had a

installation business that kind of moved into his garage and moved into a small shop and about 14 years ago I moved over

there. So, um just like we'll talk about in the podcast, there's problems that

got identified in the in the business and one of it was finding quality installers and and what that meant. And

so through the FCEF, we opened we started a school here at the College of Great Falls and uh Adam was part of our

second cohort of students. So we had uh six the first time and seven the second

time and Adam was kind of our shining star out of out of season two. Season two. I love it.

Well, Adam, uh, introduce yourself and, uh, tell us a little bit about your

background, how you ended up finding about the out about the, uh, program,

kind of what intrigued you. I want to get into your mind a little bit, um, and how how you ended up finding

the, uh, the opportunity and, and how how that looked for you after as you went through the class and graduated and

all that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, my name is Adam Miller. I'm from Cambridge, Idaho. It's

a little tiny town um kind of in central Idaho. And I'm currently living in

working in the Grand Oregon, which is on the eastern side of Oregon, not too far from where I'm from. And let's see, I

learned about the foreign industry from my dad, who learned it from his dad, who learned it from his stepfather. So my

grandpa's stepfather was a tile and stone mason and installation professional, business professional. And

he trained my grandfather, my grandfather trained my dad and my uncles. And my dad since I was little,

has been very skilled and very talented at what he does. And I got the privilege to be with him from the time I was just

a little kid. Like K was saying, when I was two years old, I was riding around with my dad doing stuff with him in the truck and drinking my orange juice and

watching him bid jobs. And it was awesome. I do see all sorts of really, really great things. hands-on and when I

was I think oh probably 14 15 at 14 I started working the

summers on a on a tile installation crew as um a helper as well as more of like

someone that's just there to learn to and to grow and to these guys weren't just handing me buckets and handing me

mud and telling me to go mix it. They were trying to teach me the basics of tile installation. It was really cool at such a young age to have people that

really cared about teaching me and not just handing me tools and telling me to wash them and stuff like that, which was

obviously part of it, too. But yeah, uh it was great. I found a a great love

for it. I did that till I was about 16 and then my family moved to a smaller town and I ended up working on some

farms and different things after that. So, I kind of got out of it and then upon graduating high school in 2022, I

served a a church mission for Church of Jesus Christ of Saints. I was gone for two years and when I returned from that

the mission that mission taught me a lot about service and helping other people and having value and meaning in your

life and I wanted to do something that could get that kind of life for my family and I kind of always considered

uh trades especially something like floor covering kind of as a backup something if I ever fell on my face I could go back to but when I returned uh

back to Idaho I was working at a couple different things didn't really feel right and my dad told me about an

apprenticeship program in Lrand Oregon So through carpet one Eastern Oregon

there is a installation apprenticeship training. The training normally is two years and you are paired with an

installer and work side by side with him and by the end of the program you have all the necessary tools for

installation. You have the opportunity to work for the company and all the basic skills that you need to be a

professional and a skilled installer. And when I heard about that I got really excited and came over here to try it

out. I came here in June. of this last year and it was great. I really enjoyed

it. When I was doing that, I from my dad, I don't know who he heard it from, but from my dad, I heard about the uh

trade training school in Great Falls, Montana, and I applied for a scholarship and was able to get it, and that was

really motivated me to go. I left for that in September. When I got to Great Falls, I loved it. It was awesome. It's

super cool to be in an environment where everyone is focused on your success, but they're not there to

belittle you or compare you to themselves or the other people. They're trying to make you the best version of yourself. It taught me a lot about how

to be professional in the way that you work. I think there's a lot of people my

age that look at skilled labor as kind of like the people that couldn't cut it and other at other things in

universities or in maybe more of a traditional style education. and Great Falls College opened me up to a lot of

uh the instructors there who are very skilled professionals of what they do and I got to see how well they run their

businesses and how well they present themselves and it gave me a whole new respect for that type of people along with my family and the type of people I

was raised by. So those are all really positive experiences that have influenced me to to continue and work

really hard in that program. I really enjoyed it and felt like I was able to learn a lot. And since returning to Oregon to begin this apprentichip, it's

been wonderful. The things I learned in that school have kind of put me on a jump start um at least six months ahead

of where I would have been. And I really am starting to I feel like get get a

hang of kind of what I'm being asked to do and improving every day. And it's really satisfying. It's really cool.

And are you currently at uh in the apprenticeship program there in Oregon

that you were speaking of earlier? Yes. Yes, I am. And it's it's something Oh, go ahead.

Sorry. No, please. It's something unique to this carpet one. I don't know. I don't think it's a

store-wide thing. Specifically, this store here in the Grand and Baker City and Enterprise, Oregon are the stores

that provide this apprentichip training. So, it's a fairly new thing. I think there's it's only been around for maybe

the past five years or so. Gotcha. So, your your experience with uh with um

the FCEF and and the college program, you said kind of jumpst started you. Do

you feel like you went in there? Not only I mean, you do have a little bit of advantage. I don't want to kudos to your

your your generations of flooring people that really taught you, right? Because when I

started, I was what I wasn't even a helper. They called us I was a gopher.

Go get me this. Go get me that. Go get me this. Go get me that. And even tools that don't exist.

Yeah. Even Exactly. Go grab the tile stretcher. This kind of stuff. And they're always

uh you know, obviously they can't play those jokes on you if you know if you know the tools. So, um it it sounds like

it it it gave you a nice, as you said, jump start in the career as being an

apprentice up there. So, I mean, can you tell me a little bit about who was your

Chad? Did you were you the trainer at this at this um particular

program? Yeah. Yeah. So, Adam was lucky in the fact that he was in the second year. And

so, there was two instructors. There was me and a guy from Pierce Flooring named Mike Shannard. The first year guys had

me the whole way through. So, it it the the classwork uh the hands-on stuff, I

was able to get help from other guys in the industry, but uh where I was always

lacking is I got out of the install trade way earlier because I didn't want to do what my dad did. So, I got into

construction, right? So, I never got I never got past the grab me a bucket uh

pack that clean my trial. Yeah. I never got past any of that. So,

you know, that we'll talk about a little later, but I've found over the over the

years that that has been a a sneaky advantage actually when you're talking business to business with a guy that

runs his own business as an installer. And there's an advantage to me not being

able to tell a guy, hey, move over and let me show you this. You know, but uh

speaking with Adam, we had Mike Shannard who's had years in the industry and came out of the installation. So that took a

lot of pressure off me because I didn't have to find the pattern carpet guy to come in and teach pattern carpet. Mike

was there and available. So on those weeks I would take all the the office work and we were able to split it up week by week which which saved us this

last year. And I I want to throw in if I can just a minute if we could replicate what Chad

and what Mike have done in Montana and some of the other 35 colleges we're

working at. We all win. Getting your dealers involved. getting the the local

installation crews involved in this training um is imperative to the

successes of the program. I I I brag a lot not to his face because I don't want

to give him a bigger head than he's got. His hat might not fit. Yeah. Well,

it's adjustable. We'll get through it. Yeah. Mike doesn't have some much problem because his doesn't have any

hair to hang on. That's right. But um you know the excitement that

these guys show these students when they come in and the passion you know I keep hearing that no matter where we go the

passion that they have in this you know it's a beginner level training. It's not meant to be heavily technical. It's

meant to really vet you and see if you really want to come into the industry.

And uh you know I I think what they've been able to replicate I would love for

other dealers to be as involved as they are. They have really made that program

successful. Well it's been the FCF made it easy for us because this all started from a

problem that I wasn't personally experiencing. Right. We I'm in this

industry younger. I'm 38. People in the industry always call me the young guy all the time. But um I I wasn't

struggling with installers, you know. Um I'm sure Daniel's experienced this, but there's other stores out there that are

were the store, they're the installers. Uh the installers are the ones that screw my day up and stuff like that.

Well, I came from installers. So, I always saw it as a trade. You know, my

when my mom was working nights at the hospital, I would watch my dad inlay elk and trout into inlay sheet vital and

cove everything. And so I when I came from the construction world into this world, I thought of this as a real trade

and I was in finished carpentry and I still in my head thought flooring installation was one step above that.

Right? So dude, we are just the same. That's how I have it. I say flooring is like the

highest hand skill requirement and then the only one that comes close to that is

finished carpentry. Yeah. I mean, I even at the time, I mean, I just thought I didn't even give myself enough credit as a pretty handy

finish carpenter because of the stuff I'd seen my dad do, you know? So, I I didn't come into it as a store

versus installer. And just naturally, as I progressed in that, we were probably the

fifth biggest store in a town of nine stores when I came in there. And what had really changed our business was

getting the installers wanting to work for us, right? And so I never really saw

me as running out of installers. If we have nine crews, half of them are under 40, but I just looked at the industry in

general. Every time I'd go to surfaces, they tell you, "Oh, they're 56. Next year they're 57. There's less and less

of them." I I I thought I would get more support from some of the businesses that were struggling. Uh but as you

everybody's found in their business, there's guys that are complainers and guys that are doers. And there's a million reasons to come up with why your

day didn't go out the way it was supposed to be. And one of them could blame it on the installer. Yeah, that job didn't work out.

Installer's no good, you know. And we've just never been like that. And so what I was getting at there and when I was

trying to give Kay a little kudos there, too, is it took me about three years to get the school going. And once it looked

like the school was going to go, I had a big problem in the fact that not only do kids need money to go to it, but I

needed a curriculum. Well, if you've seen the FCF's curriculum, it is stout.

There's no way I could have written that. So, if somebody is listening to this and wants to start one in their

market, I mean, it's going to take a little product, a little time, a backing from from at least probably two dealers

in your market. But when it comes down to just the curriculum of the SCF and their support for the students, that's

already taken care of if you can get with K. Yeah. So, I mean, I think this kicks it

back to you, Adam, is the curriculum. You already had a little bit of flooring training in some capacity. Sounds like

you went from tile and then obviously FCDF was is more of all goods uh

depending on the program, but tell me like you you already had a little bit of

experience, so you're in a bit of a place to be able to judge the curriculum uh as a student, which is pretty rare.

Tell me what you thought of how not only the how nice Chad was, and I'm sure he

paid you before this to make make all these glowing comments about him, but um

well, he's cheap. He's not gonna pay anybody, so don't don't let him tell you that.

Uh that's too funny, actually. Sorry, Chad. Um but like what do you think of the

curriculum? Do you feel like it's it somebody who was new could go in there and really go from, you know, zero to to

being able to be an efficient, effective apprentice like yourself. I mean,

obviously, you don't come out of the 10-week program or a, you know, a multi-week program and you go start your

own flooring installation firm or something, but

you you've been uh you've been there and now you're an apprentice. Uh, sounds like you had a good opportunity. Tell

me, how was the curriculum? Did you feel like it it really moved you along as your your skills and your brain?

Oh, absolutely. I think I'm not in a position to say, you know, oh, this was

good or this was bad because I would never consider myself at the level of an installer. You know, I have a lot of

respect for people that really understand and take the time to do things right. What I can say is I can be

a judge of uh doing something that you can really be proud to put your name on.

My my father did a really good job job of teaching me that that you're all you have really have in this life is your

name and your word. So you have to make sure that whatever you do can reflect both those things. And my experience at

the college was that it was exactly what I told it was going to be. I was told it was going to be an opportunity to grow

intellectually and get hands-on muscle man memory and like a very formal and

professional education learning about every type of floor covering and that's

exactly what it was. I look at someone like I had a good buddy there I I made was at the class named Spencer Anderson

and he came in he was working at Wendy's. whose working nights at Wendy's were at that at that school. Had no experience at all in any sort of trade

in any sort of anything like that. And I think he did awesome. Like I thought

really he really excelled extremely. He paid so much attention to detail. He really was on task and focused and he

come in half asleep sometimes from working all night and he still excelled exceeding me. The other guy was Marvin.

I can't remember what his last name was but Marvin same way. He was super super What was that again?

Aashi. What? Kashi. Yeah, he was he was awesome. He

man, he was keeping up with me the whole time. And I'm I'm not trying to say I was better than anybody else. They all were all at different levels, but two

guys that exposure all and just excelled extremely. I think they would be better examples than I would of really being

able to take someone that was at ground zero and taking them to such a higher standard. Holy cow, they they did

awesome. Yeah. And I think that's one of the benefits, right? because you can actually, like K said earlier, it's it's

come and try it, see if you even like it before you do it. And then once you start, if you go in there and you're really good at something already, it's

like, man, this could be something that I can do for a living, right? Um, we do have a question here from Beth Miller.

She said, Adam, what has been the best part of the training you've received so far?

Hi, Beth. Best part of training, including Oh, sorry. What was that? She was just saying hi to Beth.

Oh. Um, best part of the training I've received so far has probably been

I think for me personally would be taking it probably the first few weeks that I came

I returned from Montana back to Oregon because those first three weeks was ready to put everything I just learned

into practice to see really where I was at. And that was the best part of my training because those 10 weeks that we

had together in Montana um was all about exposure and getting as much information

into you and as much practice time as you could. So to be able to go out and see, okay, what can I really do? That

was really cool. That was probably part of that I haven't really talked to anybody else about. Just for me

personally to come back and be like, wow, I can see where I was at before, where I'm at now. I definitely improved in a lot of things and I could right

away see, oh wow, I need a lot more practice in this or I do not understand this at all like I thought I did. It's a

very humbling experience. You know, you come in, you don't want to act like guns blazing. I own the place. Look at me and all this stuff I just learned. But at

the same time, you realize you're at a higher caliber of um I guess value than

you were before. So that was the best part for me. One thing you're going to learn really quickly is that uh these installers have

no problem um promoting themselves. So

you get the ego with it. Um well, I just I wanted to throw in one thing.

I'm sorry, Paul. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I we got challenged right

in the very beginning of creating the curriculum and why we were trying to do carpet resilient hardwood and tile and

you know I I have to rely on my years I started in commercial and commercial was

you know we had to be able to do a lot of different things. I know that uh

working in high-end retail builder world and everything that the installers that actually made a lot of money for me were

the ones who could do all of it. You know, you always have a certain category you want to fall into that you love

doing. But um we wanted them to get an, you know, exposure of at least all of it

because if we just did carpet, there are some people that don't like carpet at all. And you know then if you do LVP

only LVP they may need to know some of the carpet. So the whole idea was to give

them just a kindergarten level experience with it so they could decide

they could really kind of see the industry from all different aspects. And I think that has helped a lot um you

know as we grow. Now we do have to change a little bit depending on what region we're in. Um, but you know, I can

say from just watching Adam, listening to Chad's phone calls and just bragging

about, you know, the work he's doing, there's such a pride when you have somebody like Adam or like Charity that

was in Hawkeye and some of the other students are really excelling in this.

This is our as far as SCES, these are our our fruits of the labor and we

couldn't be prouder of what the work is that we're doing with it. Right now we have uh Mr. Alan Lewis who

everyone knows just won the competition yet again because that family is crazy

skilled. Right. Just crazy. Yeah. That ridiculously good. He said that the the

FCF is a great, you know, a right foundation for installation. And then he continues saying that um

he's he was able to send one of his guys there and he learns better in a classroom setting because the p the

instructors are are more patient and it's because of you send them on these

jobs and it's it's not something that you can be like here just go do this and then if they mess it up sometimes that's

the only piece of material you got, right? So, it's a lot harder to do it then than it is to send him to these

classrooms and stuff to um to be taught. So, yeah, it's Yeah, I liked his stream

of consciousness there as he was posting. It's like Yeah. Yeah. It's like,

you know, having recognizing I mean, I was I installed for a lot of years and I

I still get out there every now and again. Flash coing, heat welding is where I ended up in in the resilient

world. I started in carpet, but when I would hire helpers when I was a sub, I

teaching them something was second. And of course, this is, you know, 25 years ago or so, but teaching them something

was second to getting the job done. And so what you do is you turn in and this

is where I think the program really can help because someone like you Adam

you wouldn't have to you could actually contribute and even if it's in a smaller

way than just hey go get this go get that go get this if you have some hand

skills and you've developed some of that in a training now now I have something to build on

that you might be able to actually help me get the job done. Uh it just in carpet just having a guy that knew how

to pick up a roll of carpet. This is back before you know uh carpet tile was

the only thing that went in on commercial jobs it seems like anymore. But uh being primarily commercial just

finding a guy that could pick up carpet and not break my back when he's when he's helping me uh was a was a plus. But

getting those lower um getting those hand skills and the knowledge base that that is provided through a program like

this, you can just see it in in uh Royy's comments. It's like

it's scary to do. It's scary to release someone to do almost anything on a job. Like Daniel said, you know, it may be

your only piece of of carpet for that area or the last drop or whatever. I mean, you can't get more, you know. Uh

so you're always there's always that fear and so it's a it's such a higher tension on a job site trying to teach

someone who is completely green but man once you've had a helper with you for

six or eight months then you start to be able so it's like you said you you

leapfrogged I feel like it's like a year jump you know if I have in my mind it's like a

year jump from a green helper maybe even more. But from having a green

helper to having someone like you that that you know learned some of the the uh

professional skills uh at the same time at least and I I should bring up uh

Jose's question here. He says, "Does curriculum does the curriculum have a

business focus portion as well?" And I'm just pulling from what you said, Adam, that it seems as though it does because

it kind of helped you with the mindset, but those things make I mean, it's it's more than a year maybe in in Leaprog. I

went through some and the point I was getting at is I h I went through so many helpers

within the first six months. If somebody stayed with me till about 6 months, then it was usually a longer term

relationship or they turned into installers later on themselves

because I would exasperate them. I would I would wear them out. Yeah. It's it's huge. And that's so as

the problem gets exasperated in that nobody's getting into it. Part of the

problem was the installers. The installers were so sick of hiring guys that were met a guy at the bar and his

sister's has a kid that's living in her basement. Maybe he'll show up every day. I got to pick him up. But they would

lose six months just trying to build a trust with these guys. And I've seen it, you know, my first year I taught this. I

didn't think that there would be kids that showed up that didn't know how to read a tape measure. I just didn't think they would sign up for a trade program.

And I learned that the easy way by learning it the really hard way. When I told him to go rip some sheets of

quarter inch and throw it in that module and I was talking to another student, I heard that table saw whining and looked

over at how that kid was cutting. I just panicked and I had to start from I just

assumed that they had all gone through shop class, things like that. So, it was an eye openener for me of when an

installer hires these guys when they're starting from just, hey, I hope he shows up. That's a lot different than with a

guy like Adam that shows up, has a 10-w weekek record of showing up on time every day, no matter what, and he has

his hand tools. And then when a guy like Daniel's looking at over at him, he's I

mean, Adam's three months away from running his own carpet seams in a in a

closet and probably could do it right now. And I don't know if he's a year away from running them right down the

center of a room with low light into a pattern carpet. I mean that's the key

where if we like as store owners from my perspective if you say you know what's

going to happen what's going to happen well it can't be all on the installers to hire and fire these guys constantly

if we're providing something where these guys hire them and I think you guys saw it in the article but Reneerie Floring

hired one of our kids Shad out of the first course and he told me he's like I'm used to losing a hundred bucks a day

for six months and he's like I was making money off your guy on week too. So

yeah, I mean what more testimony do the dealers and and this is really obviously

in the beginning you got residential and commercial that obviously that you know pretty heavily heavily focused on

residential but dealer residential dealers can that what you just said I

don't know how big much more impactful of a testimony you can have. I was

making money on him in week two. Yeah. You know, we get asked a lot about

that about, you know, residential versus commercial. Um, this is just this is

elementary. We're not we're not even getting into those. We have so much more

that we can build into these opportunities. Look, we got the we got the door open at the colleges. We've got

the door open now at five high schools as well. um we can continue to build on this and

that's that's what we expect to be able to do. But um

to get back to your to your question about the business the business portion of it that's that's not necessarily in

the FCF curriculum. I just took that as a two or three two two or three day

kind of a job focus of I'm not teaching them how to write a business plan, but

here's what a business plan looks at like looks like and here's what you should be doing. And what we tried to

teach everybody through the whole class when you're using free material, free time is you don't know how lucky you are

that you just cut that piece of marmolum wrong in my shop,

right? I tried to teach him like, "Listen guys, everybody gets this on their third year of install where they

get that huge huge bill from the IRS. Pay your quarterly estimated taxes."

Hey, don't when when your buddy says, "Oh, yeah, this truck was a tax write off." Does he even know what the hell

he's talking about? like and so we just tried to build something like that in them and then just give them the basics

of some sort of investing for retirement so that they don't end up the

56-year-old installer that has to quit. His knees are so bad he can't help

himself and he's got to keep going to work every day. And like in my market where the median income is 59, well when

my head installer is making 186, he's 36 years old. He should be really

really thinking about retirement because the one thing that that will go before the mind is the body and you know it in

this industry. That's what got my dad out of it. That's what got my grandpa out of it and unfortunately that's what got me out of it.

Yeah. I installed for a long time uh

in if you consider installation years especially in commercial where you're running big big runs of things you know

I did a lot of schools and hospitals the body today

we have a better opportunity even for that the the personal protection that

the flooring industry from knee pads to to just the ergonomics of the equipment

is far exceeds what what I was using and the methods I mean we were car like

stupid stuff to get a job done but so today it's a little bit better and you

may be able to last but I think it's really valuable that at some point

you're either going to be a high earning employee installer or you're going to be

a high earning sub and either way you You need professionalism. You need a

great attitude. You need a an a a a standard in yourself of showing up on

time. You know, like we we track certain metrics in uh at Trade Tap through the VTI. you know, professionalism,

attitude, punctuality, dependability, quality, communication,

those things are fundamental to your success regardless of whether you stay as a installer for a long time because a

lot of guys don't like to get off their knees. We got plenty of guys that when who who want to come and be PMs or

project managers at my flooring company and they're like, "Well, how much does it pay?" And we're like, "Well, it pays

this." and they're like, "Oh, well that's a huge pay cut." Well, yeah. I

mean, installers uh can do very well for themselves. I did certainly.

And um but learning to to get those taxes, I cannot tell you how many if

I've heard one story and I've got friends, multiple friends that ran through that problem. So, taking care of

that. And Adam, I'm glad you're learning that at this age stage of your career because with your attitude and your your

humbleness, you're gonna go a long way. Uh I was not like you. I was not humble. As soon as I

put together my first SEMA, I was like, I'm the greatest in the world. Right now, I'm the best. And everybody, you

guys know it. And I ran through uh helpers like crazy. Not only because of

the arrogance, but more so because I they felt like it was a deadend thing

because for six month if like I said if you made it for that six months I I I would start I felt like I could start

using them in a more productive manner. But until then it was like they were just another tool in toolbox which is

exactly what I'd been told when guys quit. It's like, dude, all I'm I'm just your runner. I don't do nothing other

than pick stuff. You can have your eight-year-old kid do this. So, I lost good guys because of it. And you you're

learning the right way. And Allan says, you know, some some good things right here, too. When you were talking about, you know, how you you

gain that confidence. So, you kind of did go into um working in the job site

like I got this, right? You get that confidence, but then you said you were humbled when you're like, oh, maybe I

don't know as much as I thought I did. Right. And then that's apparently Paul Stewart joined to that might be my

brother. But um

he said that you know when when you are on the path that you're on when you're like I'm going to learn. I'm going to

keep on being better. What ends up happening a lot of the times is you end up surpassing who you're working for and

then you just go find either find someone else to work for or that's when you just, you know, part ways and then

you're like, well, if I'm already better than you, that means I can do this by myself.

Well, you said it earlier, Paul, when you made a comment that you did a a survey out to the industry, and I did

one right when we first started just to installers asking about certification.

It's amazing how many installers have no idea what certification is. They'll they will claim a certification on a class

they went to, you know. So, I think, you know, one of the things we talked about

with the business stuff, we talked about that in the very beginning. We talked about having a little bit of that, but

we didn't want to lead that that student away from there thinking they were ready to go on, you know, start their own

business. that was not our our you know our plan to begin with. But we do have some schools that have those u basic

business classes that do have uh OSHA 10 training in their classes now and that

are kind of you know um including those in the the training. I think that it's

it's important to really understand that. Could you imagine if we could

qualify and quantify how many people we've lost in this industry that that

went upside down that first five years, you know? Yeah. I I can only imagine that number

first off. Secondly, like people who do not have a good path like the FCF to

come in. That's what I'm trying to drive home to our audience is

the the path of like if I was hiring and it would it would um be a good time for

me to mention like placement and our one of our products being jump start to get

these young guys placed. That's going to be a better place to find somebody. But when I was hiring, it was just like Chad

said, you might hear of the buddy at the bar sister's son that you know,

yeah, is looking for a job. And and the problem is they are whether or not

they're good enough to to to do the job or to be a good helper aside,

most installers don't give them a chance because because of what I just laid out.

So these programs, this type of program for Adam like is is monumental in the success

once they get on the project of having some staying power. I mean, I do have a question for you, Adam, real quick. One

of the things that I loved and I still love and and uh one of our uh audience

members, Rand, uh mentioned, but I still love doing it, he says.

I always loved looking at the finished product as an installer, like when it was done. Do you get that satisfaction

when you stand back and you're like, "That looks so good." Oh, man. Yeah. Yesterday, for example,

we were in a assisted living home tearing out some carpet that had been peed on by dogs for probably 10 years.

Just the nastiest, the most disgusting apartment I've ever been into. You

tear it all out. You scrape up all the glue, get the all the floor relay with underllayment, put down brand new carpet

with new base, the walls are painted, you leave that spaces, oh my goodness, it just looks so good. you're so and

then like you're putting on base and you make the outside corners look so nice and it sits nice and tight against the

wall and you're like, "Yeah, last time it did not look that good. It's getting better and better and then and then the

installer comes over and says, "Okay, now try doing this." And you're like, "Well, that's really hard." And then you got to figure that one out. And it's

it's a huge challenge, but it's also really satisfying when you can overcome those challenges. It's awesome. And if you can stick through that nasty pee on

stuff and, you know, you could just walk out. But if you can kind of just buck up a little bit and wait, it gets so much

better. Yeah. I think we've all had installers walk off those jobs.

Plenty of times it's been like, I can't believe I am in this position.

However, there's also jobs you walk on, you're like, ah, this could be gravy, baby.

Yeah. So, it comes and goes. But uh one of the coolest things about your story and

about how you kind of came through the industry is just showing that some of the you're a product of what a a

concerted effort with some mindfulness and a great curriculum and some good people can can do

for both the youth but as well as an industry as a whole. like

your your path is like the happy path to flooring. And I hope you uh I I asked

that question earlier about like really looking at a floor and being like, "Oh yeah, that looks great." Because that is

one of the things that kept me in it for so long and I still get out and when we

have a challenging job or something, a cool project going on, I want to get out and see it. I just that's something I

love. I've talked to Daniel about it before and I know he takes a lot of enjoyment in that finished product.

That's one of the benefits of being in Florian is we are well we're supposed to be the last ones but you know uh we are

one of the latter trades and you get to see this whole project kind of come together and start to round out right in

front of your eyes. Well and you're creating like that's so my two best installers there. both

younger guys, but if I ask them how that big 50 by 70 rectangle click together job went, they say it was boring.

Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, they made a pile of money. Pile of money.

And to them, that's boring. So, when they get that house that has an inlay in the sitting room or the or the library,

that's when they start geeking out about stuff. And I that's the kind of passion that my dad

had and that we were missing for so long. And I think it's just when that

when that constant everybody's been in that relationship with that girlfriend or boyfriend where it's constantly a

fight where it almost becomes easier if it is a fight. And that's where I kind of wanted to ask Daniel a few questions

is like where we've had our success is truly treating it like a partnership. In our market, they're all independent

contractors. But if I send Adam's crew out on that piss job, he's going to have

about six jobs in a row that are sweet. And when that apartment unit calls me back again, I'm not sending Adam back

there just because he did a good job. It's somebody's else's job to take the piss job, right? What do you see as

because I'm sure you've experienced that with other stores where it's there's a break between the installers and the and the store owners.

Oh, yeah. What do you think about the number one ways that make you guys feel welcome or

that the relationship works that stores can kind of work on with installers?

Uh, with us, I think, you know, when we're doing the labor only stuff, it's the the stores that we have the best

relationship with. It's never them telling us what to do. It's always them asking us, "Hey, what should we do here?

What should we do there?" Because they look at us as the professionals and not, "Hey, go do this because this is what I'm telling you to

do." Right. So, um, not not only that, we call each other partners.

Yeah. We don't we don't say, you know, we're we're a subcontractor. It's like no, we're partnering because you need me, I

need you, right? So, it it's always that partnership. So, it's coming to that mutual agreement and then having those

tough conversations when it is like, hey, man, like sometimes

you are going to run into those jobs and some sometimes, you know, I am going to

make those up, right? Like you you had that super sweet easy job, that super boring job where you made tons and tons

of money, right? this one right here. I think um sales people just need to to

know that sometimes you got to say, "Hey, I'm I kind of messed up on this one a

little bit." And it's it's hard to, you know, to come to terms with that. You know, they don't want to be like, "I messed

anything up." But it's the truth. The fact of the matter is people mess up, right? And you got to be humble

enough to be like, "Hey, I messed up on this one. Can you help me out?" And then those are those same relationships where

when they come to you like that on the next one he's like hey like and this has happened where he's like hey

remember that bill me this much extra on this job and then this much extra on this job to to start making up for that

and it's those kind of partnerships that you really really strive for. Right.

Well and we've seen that in my industry we have you know because of that wonderful show Yellowstone on TV. We've

had an influx in certain parts of our state. Well, as that has started to slow down, we'll get guys that'll come in and

throw their business card on my desk and be like, "Hey, I'm so and so. I'm from Boseman. I do click together vinyl plank

and glue down carpet tile, but I only do big jobs." And when I throw their card away, they say something like, "Well, it

must be nice." And I just look at him and I say, "What kind of a son of a would I be if I had Adam go tear

out that do that sheet vinyl in a clawfoot tub yesterday and I wait till I

get these big square open flat jobs and I'm going to call the guy out of Boseman. These are my These

are my jobs where I look at them and I'm measuring it and the guy starts coming up in my head. Oh, I remember when Johnny tore out that carpet. Oh, I

remember when Taylor did that job on the fourth floor and the elevator was out. You know, those are how I've always

thought of those jobs. And so, I'm glad to hear, you know, everyone can convince themselves they're doing things the

right way. But I'm glad to hear from an installer because it's chang business just Yeah. And that's why I want to kind of

address this comment right here from Kevin. He said, "If they are independent, they are not your partners." But I don't agree because I

don't work for Roberts, but I use their stuff. So guess what? We're partners, too. And that's how you got

Yeah. Maybe not partners in the traditional sense of the word of like

business partners on a business level, but you are damn sure partners in

getting that project done. I mean, what else would you refer to them as? Well,

and like who has like in in my office world, I have somebody that answers the phone, does the estimates, hound dogs

out the jobs for you, and at the end, I'll pay you whether I get paid or not. So, I'm also your accountant and your billing agent, right? So, if there is a

claim, you I got to file the claim, I got to do. So, it is absolutely a partnership. And I've never seen it go

successful the other way. Like, I we've had stores that just keep a list and they hand it to the customer. Hey, call

whatever installer you want. Those stores go away so quick because without that that collusion with each other knowing

that, hey, I got to pick up my daughter on the third day. Can you cover for me? Can you do this? Without that

partnership, I mean, it's just it's nothing. And it makes everybody's job so difficult. If I show up on Monday and I

don't know, I know that three of my partners are showing up, but that one guy I had to hire, Lucy Goosey, that not

really the guy I like very much. I've been thinking about him since Friday at five o'clock wondering if his ass is

gonna show up on Monday. Well, when we start getting slow, that guy ain't around because he's not a

partner. He becomes a goon really. Like he just he just becomes the guy that I

call when I need something. A mirror fogger is what we call him. Chad, you know,

we didn't talk about this part of it because um we really don't think about it and I I think because sales is such a

huge part of my um my career is that

this class we had and I think Roy would attest to this. We had sales people take

this basic floor covering installation class. we we're missing that that

relationship between sales and the installer and and because I I started

out with installation and developing those. I will tell you because of that relationship, that partnership is why I

was able to be successful in sales. I had installers I could call on Sunday

afternoon at 3:00 if I had an emergency. They would take care of it for me if at all possible. They also knew if they

needed extra floor prep that I wasn't going to question them, that there was a trust, there was a partnership there. In

fact, in uh March of last year, I received a text from a guy in Nashville

that I used a lot and he sent me a picture of his new toy and he said,

"Thank you for all the years working with me and because of all of that work you gave me, I was able to buy this new

toy and it's a yellow Lamborghini." So, you know, the money is definitely there

when you work together. And I think more salespeople need to be taking this kind of training uh not just to understand

product, but to understand through the eyes of the installer what they're going to see and how to best build out those

those projects. I completely agree with you and I think it' be great

through that, right? where where the salesman, right, where they they're having issues and issues and issues and

it's like, well, did you vet the installer? No, he said that he could do this. And it's like and then they're taking bottom

of the you're they're giving bottom of the barrel pricing and it's like it and that's where I always say just it sounds

like you got what you paid for to be honest with you. Well, I measured every one of my jobs. I

was on that job. I understood floor prep. Um, I developed enough confidence

with my install crews. Not only did I just sell the project, I was out once a

month. I was out of the office helping bring in tile, helping to tile around fireplace surrounds or backsplashes or,

you know, doing things that, you know, would at least let me gain the knowledge of the installation so I could continue

that partnership and and better support my customer in the long run. Yeah. We talked about this pretty

extensively at Ties, right? Cuz um I was watching HUD do some demonstrations over at the CFI booth and you know um why

while he was doing it, people were coming and asking questions and stuff and I was like honestly like I don't do

this. I went and got certified because if I'm selling something, I want to know what I'm selling. I want to know what it

takes. And it it does it it gives you that knowledge to be like, "Oh, this is

why they're complaining about pricing or this is why they're com, you know, and it's not necessarily complaining. It's

just, you know, letting the sales people know that, hey, I don't think you understand how much this stuff really takes."

So, we did that in the class that Adam can kind of talk about. We we went through and pulled out every we would do

a takeoff for a tile job and then we would, you know, see who got it right, see who got it wrong based on square footages. And then we'd break out the

labor and then we'd break out what the store's portion of that was. So if if if

the store if it cost the store this much money, here's the difference between markup and margin. And at the end of the day, this is what you made as the

installer and this is you made as a store. Now, that number seems surprising to people that have that are in like a

young man like Adam. Well, man, the installer made a lot of money. Well, of course, we're running nine installers a

day. That's what it takes, right? But where I really saw their eyes light up is what it looks like when you think

you're making a h 100red grand a year and you start adding in that truck payment and that in that helper you paid

and when you we put it up on paper and it's like all right Adam Miller Flooring LLC did 125,000 and his takehome was 32

grand. You just saw those guys eyes light up and go, "Oh, all right. All right." So I maybe Adam you can talk to

that a little bit. Did the class give you a little bit of not just here's how to spread glue and here's how to do

stuff, but it gave you a peak into the other side of it a little bit. Absolutely. First of all, give me

gratitude for like the the store that I work for for how much they do for us as

installation crews to be able to provide good jobs that make good money. And you

know, I I work on a crew with two other guys. So they between the two of them, they are splitting it and then my pay

gets take out of their pay and they're still doing well for themselves. That gave me a lot more respect from the business aspect of that. You know, while

the store is making money off of us, it's not necessarily a greed battle of who's making more money and why I should be making more money. It's more about

you're talking about that relationship. You guys explain that very well at the school of the relationship between a

store, the business, the business professionals or the salespeople, excuse me, and the the flooring installers and

how all those work together as a team. And we would write out those those plans of square footage for a carpet job or a

tile job and then take out our our takehome with it and our markup and then the storage take home. And it's super

eye opening to see that on paper, but it's even more eyeopening than to go onto a job site and be like, "Oh, this

is what they were talking about, right?" You know, I I can tell exactly how much money we're making per square foot.

And that that really shows to like the level of like what they're expecting us. They're going to pay us that much, so we

better do that good of a job. We better do a job that we can continue to be paid like that. So, I think that's something

I don't know if it answers your question or not. That's kind of Yeah. Well, it shows that you have a I

mean, I think one of the goals is to have a a a common knowledge of that stuff and you'll build it as you go. But

if nobody sparks it, nobody sparks it for you, you may not uh learn those

lessons and be one of those uh poor souls that, you know, do very well for

themselves and then get caught up in, you know, the the tax problems or

they're not really looking at, okay, I I make this much. This is my these are my

expenses. Um, it's one of the things I'm really passionate about at Trade Tap is trying to continue to build things that

will help the installer to understand their business a little bit better. We

got some great stuff later on down the road that I'll talk about later, but it's just it's having that common uh

that that starting point of what it takes to be a profitable installer.

It's not I made a thousand bucks, you know, today or whatever and that's my

money. Like, there's things that come out of that. And the the sooner you know that, the better you're going to if you

launch your own uh installation crew in the future or what have you, you'll have that groundwork to work off of.

I think the other thing with that, Paul, too, is that we hear so much in the industry from the installation side of

of just the the fighting with the dealers. You know, the dealers making all the money. Well, you by

understanding that whole dynamic, it makes you understand, look, there's a lot of overhead in being a dealer.

There's it's not an easy as it's a $100,000 job and 40,000 of it goes to

labor and the rest of it, you know, the dealers. That that's that just is misunderstanding of how the the uh

if only a lot of people look at the top top end number and think, oh, the rest is yours. Well, they forget you actually

had to buy the materials. You had to, you know, ship them to the job site and unload them and warehouse them and pay

for, you know, and then all that's retailers. you even step foot on the job site,

they're all investments. And then even a year afterwards, I mean, if if you're carrying a warranty with it, you

know, that installer is long gone, that dealer is still standing there. If anything, well, hopefully the good the good

installers are not long gone because we really hold the feet to the fire on that stuff. But that that's also what helps

them to improve is that you you make sure they know they're going to have to,

you know, take care of any warranty items. But I was going to also say, I mean, I I'm not a retailer. I'm a

commercial dealer. So, I don't have to anything back here that you see in the background. I don't have to buy any of

that. But many retailers have to buy their their displays or they got to invest some level of money or these

types of things. And the building's not free. So, there's there's all these buckets that that money has to go into.

I did want to uh we're nearing the end, believe it or not. That was that was

that was super fast. That was probably one of the fastest episodes. Like it went by. Well, Paul, before before you cut

anything off, I just wanted where Adam is going to be a real success in this business is my dad's best installer

growing up was Vince Carrick. And Vince Carrick would sweep your carpet instead of vacuum it and he would leave a rose

magnet with his card on there. And Vince is not installed in my lifetime at Flores, 15 years. And people call and

ask for Vince. My guy now, John, he drives a brand new truck, brand new trailer, and he's nice to everybody. You

could literally tear him up and down and he would look you right in the eye and smile. And when everybody else is slow,

he's still four weeks out. And we just get jobs where people say, "Hey, I'm good for those next four rooms, but just

make sure you send that guy with the black truck." So, from an installer standpoint, there's a little bit to learn from it of

you're still in the customer service business, no matter what you say. And when it's when it's really busy, yeah,

you're busy. But when it's slow and you're the only guy pulling your truck up behind that store that time of year,

that's how you know that that you're doing the right job. Yeah, I dropped off there for a second.

I heard everything, but for whatever reason, I dropped off. Uh I that point that

is why we when like our platform it does not track

it only tracks um it doesn't only track quality right all

those metrics I mentioned earlier have more to do with you being a a nice person to deal with and giving the

customer a good experience and then one item has to do with your quality not that quality is not important because it

can It's the lynch pin. Meaning you can be the nicest guy and and best attitude,

be punctual and everything and then that if that one fails, the whole job is a a

failure. Right. Correct. If you don't do a good install. So it is the most important one. But all the

there's so many other things that will make you successful on top of your quality installation. So learning that

as a young person and getting that ingrained into you is that you're delivering a service and you are

delivering an experience and if you can deliver an experience that is better

than the com a competitor you're going to win out most of the time

every time regardless of price. So yeah the the um last thing I want to

do is just one last little touch on this relationship versus partnership. I think

Kevin won't let it go. Yeah. But but at the end of the day, it

Yeah. Not not in the legal uh sense of the word. And I am a company owner. It does not offend me at all. Uh it

actually makes me see how how big how much of an investment they're putting

out on the job sites for my projects and that they're treating the job like I

would treat the job if I'm there. I look at as partnership. you, the vernacular

doesn't really matter. The key is that you have a good relationship where the installer is going to put their best

foot forward, not just for money, but because they respect other people. They

respect, heck, the end user if nothing else. They want to turn over. I mean, I know guys that they've been on jobs and

it's it's it's just one of them tough ones. In commercial, you can get electricians and plumbers in your way

and all this stuff's in your way and you're it's a struggle just to get square footage down in a day. But they

don't just throw it out the window and start having a shitty attitude and not

doing a good job because they actually care about the enduser and they care

about me and our company having a good face forward. So, they deal with it. And

again, it goes a long way, Chad, when you when you remember that you're like, man, he was on a toughy. I'm gonna make

sure he gets one that's crisp. It's in the future. It's And I I want to say one thing

because when we first started, one of the things we wanted to do is elevate this career path to what it should be.

It takes skill to do this. This is not going to be a maybe some LVP will be a

DYI, but um the pride that a brickmason in my lifetime a brickmason just it it

came with some of that acknowledgement of what that skill set that's. That's what we're trying to drive back in the

installation and just in our industry. So, we have to demand quality. We need education. We need training. And they

need support if we're going to have better talent in a stronger industry moving forward.

I can't pop up. Go ahead. I just think we need guys.

Sorry. I'm I'm I'm really gonna let you go this time. Okay. I think we need guys like Adam

because I one of my biggest surprises when I came over to my dad's business was we did a tile job and we said, "Oh,

we got to send Sean over there to tuck the carpet." I just never thought when somebody says he's a tile guy that he

would call the store and say, "Send your carpet guy over to tuck the carpet at a doorway in the hallway." It's just not

reasonable, man. You are a tradesman. Right? So, at least if Adam got through that class and said, "Yeah, maybe tile's

the thing that I'm going to live the rest of my life off and I absolutely love it." He at least got that idea of

here's where the tax strip goes. Here's how you kick it in. And, you know, don't make the salesperson crawl around on the

floor and ask your or be unfair to your carpet guy that has to go over there on Saturday and tuck some carpet for one

case of beer. You know, it's like it ain't fair, man. Be a tradesman. Yeah. Well, you can be you can be a

spec. Go ahead, Daniel. You've been We can't see the the stuff on Instagram, right? So, I'm just going to kind of go

over some stuff over here because they're talking about partners over here, too. And then getting back to the

expenses that you were talking about, right? Cuz a lot of salesmen, they don't see the expenses. So, um just letting

everyone know how really expensive it is to run your own installation outfit and

how um basically the money should just not be flowing to the dealer. It should be

going to the installer and that's what you're kind of working up to to to become that that partner that that

person needs. And uh also that customer satisfaction is the number one end goal.

Totally. and the installers especially. We've said this year over year and we talked to Adam and guys about it at

Nauseium, but me selling K a $40 a square foot carpet means absolutely

nothing unless I have that guy that can put in that carpet. Everybody knows that, you know, also

have cognizant of the fact that the I mean you've seen the stuff that

you're getting feedback on Facebook and the stuff you're getting feedback on Instagram. It's under the impression that the

salespeople don't know that. Like when you say, "Hey man, you made 180." And they say, "Yeah, I got to pay taxes." I

know you got to pay taxes, man. And that's where we're trying to get the bridge with these guys. Is that students

like Adam know that the stores understand it and the stores know that the installers understand it, that

we all know that it's none of our jobs are cake. Even though you're on your hands and knees and I know it's tough work, the installer the the sales guy

thing isn't cake any either. You don't want to argue for 20 minutes. was just telling people like

like once you become an installer, it's easy. This is easy to work with this and then once you start using this, it's

like, man, I'm exhausted. Yeah, man. I two hours over the colors of beige on a 6x6 bathroom. I had

samples out of cabinet doors I had in the basement over a 60 square foot bathroom. It's part of

the job. I like it, but it ain't easy. There's no doubt, you know. Well, Chad, you what you just gave me is hilarious

because what I always said is I can sell you $180 a yard wool. See, my my price

is a little higher than yours, but if I if I can't install it, it has no value. No value. So, that's

Yeah. Every time I walk through the shows, that's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's beautiful tile or this is

beautiful carpet. This is But, you know, it just doesn't matter if it's not done

properly. If it's not installed properly, it just it doesn't matter how pretty it looks on that uh display. You

get it in properly improperly installed or looking terrible. Well, it's just you

can take a $180 a yard product and make it look like $8 a yard. Yeah. Well, and have some have some care in training

from an installer standpoint, too, where, you know, we hired a young in uh

salesperson one time, and the last company had taught him to flip closets. Just flip them. Flip the closets. Who

cares about the closets, right? Well, Vince took took him out there and showed him like, see what this looks like when

you run it against the grain. Nobody had ever taught that poor guy that, right? Because he came from a bad store. He

came from a store that didn't care about the installers and just look seeing him look at that and go, "Oh, I get it."

Right? And that took no time out of the installer. He didn't call him a soft hand. He didn't tell him, "This kid

don't know what he doing." He just walked back the office and goes, "Hey, come with me. I got to show you something." And you should have seen his

face when he came back. He's like, "I can't believe that." Like, I can't believe how long I've been doing that.

I'm thinking of all the jobs in this town that have their carpet turned the opposite way in the car, you know?

Well, and I I think I think what we've talked about here is something we could we could definitely spend hours and

hours talking about, but it's we're a very segmented industry. We all, you know, we all work

in our own little silos. But if you want to be successful, you'll align yourself

with the best. That's whether salesperson, that's that's the store, that's the installer, and you all work

together in unison. And then then you protect the customer, you protect yourself, and you deliver a beautiful

product. And that's I think that's the silliness of some of this is so simple,

but when all we do is just talk about how hard it is for one one aspect of it.

It takes all of it coming together to work together to be successful. Yeah. So, my brother does ask some

questions here. I mean, he says, "We need a program that allows an upcoming installer to spend a week or two with a

company to practice their uh other disciplines for more experience." And then also, how can smaller outfits like

us uh create a relationship with the FCF in order to facilitate the installers

that want to find placement? So, I can take the first one. You can do what Adam does. You can take business

classes at night from BYU online and you can call and ask uh big stores and

little stores. I mean, Adam's training himself at night. He's going to business what is it, Adam? Business management

school. Yeah, business management. Getting a bachelor's degree in business management. That's awesome. And then I mean, even

the installers here, we tell them it's not just learning while you're on the job. It's what you do outside of the job

is what's going to push you forward. And you're already on that path, man. That's awesome. Absolutely. Well, and he's at the point where he

doesn't and we've seen this a lot in the industry. Dan, you've seen this a lot and I think Paul has too, but I've heard

that a lot in the industry when I'm at surface is this person doesn't respect me. That person doesn't. Anybody that's

ever told me I don't respect them has hasn't earned respect. Adam was so far

ahead of some of these kids while also going to business school. And because the respect was mutual, there was no

need to say, "This guy doesn't know how good I am. This guy doesn't respect me for this." Everybody has been in those

good relationships where you feel it. And it almost it gets said inevitably, but just by the way you treat each

other, you know? So, if you're in a position, you feel like that store is not respecting you or giving you the

wrong stuff, you've got to take it upon yourself to just look at that guy and go, "Hey, man.

I've got to go to greener pastures." if if it's truly eaten away at you that much, you know. Well, and I think the look, you you can

see it in comments and and we're exposed to it a lot, but

the industry needs healing. There is because of this the years of of the

subcontracting

became the majority of the installation. The the the the

contention between the labor and the store. I mean you you can even read into

some of the comments whether it's on here or on Instagram. It's like

We all have to make money. That's the bottom line. And we need to come together. And

another reason why I think partnership is is a decent way is we try to create

opportunities for our guys to both learn, but you know, we've had guys that

have tough weeks or tough months and we help them financially. Like that that's

pretty close to a partnership. That being said, the the contention between a

a dealership or a store and a installer,

I contend that it's the age of the installer that this I mean, we're in the

process right now at my flooring company of getting rid of about 80% of our

workload that is in the center of of the business, meaning your submitts, your

transmitts, your billings, your ordering, all that stuff. uh AI is eating that alive right now. I

see it in real time and it's actually works. And what are we going to have

left? And I did a whole talk about this or a speech at U convention about this is that we're going to have our

installation and our relationships with those guys and the quality that we and

the the uh effort we as stores and them as installers pour into each other for

the benefit of the end user. And then you're going to have your relationships on the front side of that that get you the opportunities. But that middle part

is getting eaten alive. I mean, even retail stores, uh, I was reading a few

months back how how the online flooring orders are up like 25 or 28%

in 2025, right? So, like I'm not saying that we're we're

all out of business. I'm just saying the focus that we have is our community or our customers and our installers or our

labor and focusing on the front and the back side of of the process is where

success is found. Um, and I do believe that, you know, a lot of the installers in the world are and and people looking

to get in installation like you, Adam, this is the best time. Like, yeah, we not only does the industry need it,

but I really believe that the installers uh stance in the industry is getting more and more and more prevalent. uh

we're building a whole company around it for goodness sakes, you know, and uh talking with manufacturers and and

training entities and all the stakeholders in our in our industry, it's clear to me that the the age of the

installer like where they are I I hearken to this a lot. a guy um Mark at

the NTCA used to tell a story, he probably still does about when his

greatgrandfather or his grandfather would walk onto a job and he he shows a picture and they're dressed in the to

the nines, man. Like they got a vest on and this little half tie thing and they

look like super professional. He's like, "Yeah, back then he'd tell me stories about walking onto a job site." Now this

is commercial kind of uh feeling but still no different in in residential I would think. Uh and you're highly

respected. You are one of the highest skilled hand skills measuring all these things uh in the building. Um, and

hearkening back to that like the the pride and the the uh earning ability of

that that guy that treats him who who presents himself in a professional

manner cares about the customer. Roy said earlier, punctuality is like, you know, I I forget the exact quote, but it

essentially is one of them big things that you're there on time, you can be relied on. Those things fell off it. I

mean, I I've dealt with guys all the horror stories you can ever think of. And today, it just seems like it's

getting a little bit better. A little bit better. You nailed it. And like when I I was

catching myself getting a little frustrated with with, you know, some of the comments. I I'll be honest. I

haven't had that in 11 years. There's just a harmony in our

business. And lucky, granted, I was lucky. I was blessed. I was raised by installers, but I some of the comments

like the partnership one and I'm not hearkening on him too much. I remember that that thought in my head and your

initial thought in your head is this guy's going to tell me how to do my job. Well, I'll show him. Guys like Adam,

when they go through schools like this, that's why we're specific to what installers we bring around them. That

hopefully in their career, they never have to feel that. and if they ever feel it that they know enough to be like,

"Okay, this is not the store for me." Right? But I I or they're equipped to deal with it.

They're totally equipped to deal with it and be able to say, "Hey, you know, it's me, Adam. I'm calling. I'm on my third

catfist basement in a row, man. I feel like you're using me a little bit, you know, and I hope it goes easy on this."

when you you said something a while ago, Paul, um you you were talking about the

way that we've always done business and you know, again, we all kind of we realize growing up. I know that this is

really something that should have been put in place a long time ago. Um but we're we're trying to play catchup and

you know what, right now is the perfect time because we're not the only industry hurting. Uh there's construction, there

is carpentry, there's lineman school, there's I mean can go through all these things. So, right now is the time. The

timing is perfect. Um, we're attracting amazing talent through these college

systems, through these high school programs. Um, we're making ourselves known, but we have to change the way we

do business. AI is going to change it for us, but we've got to start changing.

Um, that's one one of the reasons we're working on, we just received a grant. We're going to be working on building

out an online gaming VR program with this like we did in Alabama. Um we're

we're look we're not just looking at one avenue to deliver everything that we

need to be delivered. We work with skillbridge which is military bringing the veterans in. We work with uh oh just

just found out last week from North Carolina uh North Carolina senator uh

that we are now going to be a sponsor on one of their workforce development bills. So the floor covering industries

voice is getting stronger but not because we're doing something magical. It's just the times right. Everything's

perfect and we're moving forward with um being able to hopefully support the

future of the industry. And there's some leaders out there doing some things. Uh

I've had a one of the one of the things that tick

me off maybe the most is listening to people talk about the problems and like

they're not doing nothing about it. And that's fine. I can handle that part. But then not supporting people who are doing

something about it is another level of frustration for me. So um I I've watched

it. I've been building, you know, uh our company that that is all labor supportive uh for eight years now. I

mean, time flies, but um the at the end of the day, you you realize that there's

going to there's plenty of talkers. There's plenty of people, but everybody, and this is the point, everybody wants

something to happen. And I think what's what's finally going is there's a little

bit of fire catching. And you can see it and it makes me really excited. I go to

Ty and talk to all the people and and I'm like I can see the fire like the the

kindling is lit and I really do uh I do think it's a really pristine time to get

into the trades. Um and I think we're get back to that good old day where we're uh highly

respected. You know, my my uncle growing up was a superintendent and he traveling

superintendent for a large commercial uh builder. We thought he was freaking

the cat's meow, dude. I mean, my he was my dad's twin brother. He's passed since, rest his soul. But, uh, Uncle

Larry, man, everybody looked up to he was like the supreme guy.

the I mean 40 years ago the tradesmen were not looked at like they were second

class. You It was I'm glad I'm sitting in the bathroom. I just realized

your filter's off. Yeah. I can see how messy your office is. Yes. Sorry. Um I you know guys I am I

just want to finish and answer Daniel's question about how do you get involved with FCEF? Look, we c we will work with

you. I mean, I think even Jose and I have had some conversation about trying to get some local schools involved. Do

what Chad's doing. You know, if you need help finding a local uh college, the the

curriculum that we have built has to be handled through a public school system. It's not something I can just give to

Chad and say, "Chad, you know, here go build your you know, your because it's

go run it." Yeah. It's actually something that has to go through the school system, but that that keeps that keeps us from doing

all kinds of things out here that um could actually hurt it. So, give me a

give me a call, send me an email. Um let me know how I can help. Uh like I said,

we've got 35 colleges as of right now, and the goal is to be in every state.

And um we're also working in and trying to finish something up in Canada. So,

um, we want it we want to be able to help and make this program, you know, success everywhere.

Yeah. I think we can up on something. Let's do it.

I'm just I'm just kidding with Hey, Kevin, you you you know, we know

what you're saying, brother. Yeah. The the the heart's in the right spot, obviously. Do we require training or certifications

for our partners? Right. And the crazy thing is is that I've actually met a lot of the people that that work for us as

partners either at a certification or they came to me looking for certification. Um, and one of them was

actually in one of the certifications that I that I was teaching. So there that there is

we require our guys to be teachable. So willing to go get trained, willing to go

do that stuff. So uh I it is time to go. I didn't mean to make anyone upset. Um,

oh, we're mad, Kevin. We're mad. Well, he just says that that they're subs and they need to be identified as such and not use partners. Like I said,

the word carries weight. Your message, right? And and that's the thing is that's why we stopped using sub because

that means that they're lower than us. But if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't get this project, right? And if it

wasn't for us, they wouldn't get this project. So, you can go back and forth because the

word sub does mean lower tier contractor. And that's why we as a

flooring contractor are considered a subcontractor and then our subs are considered third tier subcontractors to

a GC. But all that said, I want to follow

Adam hasn't told me this yet. What's next for Adam? What's next for Adam? What's next for you?

Well, I think to kind of sum that up also with everything you guys been talking about with why trades matter,

what's next for me is I'd like to be able to voice my experience thus far

with more people my age and get people excited about getting into trades specifically for recovering. Um, as a

career path, I'm going to make it a career path. I'm going to graduate this apprenticeship in a year and a half and then begin to install. I, as of right

now, I don't know where. I plan on staying here in the Grand for a while and one working through that. I'd like

to open up my own installation crew and I'd like to continue to take whatever opportunities I can get for growth and

to honor the training that's got me to where I am and respect it to push me

forward in the future. I don't want to forget where I came from. I don't want to get caught up in the in the stigma of

of, you know, of all the money and the profit, but focusing really on what got me into this from the start was putting

your name on something, appreciating that and having the integrity to teach other people about it in a humble way.

It can keep you teachable. It can help you to improve and working your hardest to do your best every day. That's really

what I want. So, as much as I can say for right now, the plan is to go out and apply everything that I've been

learning. Do you see what we guys totally took the message about and

we started complaining about subs and installers and stuff and we had this kid right here just we could have made this

a 15minute podcast. Well, I tell you what, uh we're

definitely going to want to have you back on, Adam, and keep in touch with you as you go through your career. And

um it's been it's been really like energizing to listen to your experience,

but also every time you talk, you start with a smile. Like you're just a good

dude. I'm I'm glad I've gotten to meet you. Hopefully I'll get your contact info from Chad if that's okay with you.

I'd love to keep in touch with you and see how we can help in any way to uh make some of those dreams come true uh

alongside you and just uh you're you're a breath of fresh air. Uh there's a lot

of those. Um but yeah, it's it's been a real blessing to have you on this uh

podcast and and get to share your story. It's it's I think it's great your attitude right

now because that's what I I tell people, right? It's like if you do the right thing, the money's going to come, man.

You just have to do the right thing and too many people are not trying to do it, but you're you're well on your way.

I appreciate that. Thank you so much. It means a lot. So, thanks uh to everybody for joining

us today. Chad, K, Adam, especially young man. I I really uh mean everything

I said and look forward to u chatting with you in the future. To all our uh

audience and the comments, thank you for uh contributing today. Thank you for all

the comments and all the questions. We didn't get to get to all of them. Uh but

that's what a great uh podcast will will give you is a a really great conversation. Uh good uh content.

Hopefully everybody learned a little bit of something about how we can, you know, there's organizations out there where we

can participate and and work together to, you know, elevate our trade. And um

I I look forward to I am excited about 26. I'm excited about the future and I I

really um Adam, you get to you're one of the uh adders to that is seeing guys

like you and I think that you know Roy was saying it throughout the comments too how much he likes to see the the the

new guys coming up and building up. So what SCF is doing is making a

difference. Let's find ways where we can work with them and and partner with them

and and and elevate them and uh work together to uh push the agenda forward.

And um yeah, if you are catching this on YouTube, like, subscribe, you know, all

you guys on Facebook and Instagram and such, you know, make sure to leave us a comment. Uh we're proud to say we we are

like really killing it on some of these platforms and it's all because of you guys. So, thank you so much for

extending our reach. Thank you, Kay and Chad and Adam for joining us today. And

it was a wonderful conversation. And you know it when it goes an hour and a half and it didn't seem like I know. And I was really nice today.

Kay, you were. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you. I'm glad that threat

worked. It did. Bet my arm backwards at at times. That's right. Well, we look we look

forward to bringing more stories like Adam. Adam, you stay in touch because

we're going to be using you a lot. Okay. Yeah, you're a good you're you're a good

example. All right. Thank you everybody and we'll catch you guys next week.