The Huddle - Episode 164 - Exploring Innovations, Market Shifts, and Expert Perspectives in the Flooring Industry

This week on The Huddle, we’re diving deep into the latest hard surface flooring trends with special guest Scott Rozmus. From hardwood (solid vs. engineered) to resilient (SPC, WPC, sheet vinyl, and PVC-free options), laminate’s comeback, and even old standbys like VCT—Scott brings his perspective on where the industry is headed.

We’ll also tackle tariffs and their impact, opportunities for installers who specialize in sheet vinyl, and how crossover products are shaping both commercial and residential markets. Plus, Scott shares valuable insights on building relationships with distributors, navigating claims, and exploring career paths in flooring.

If you’re looking for a pulse on the hard surface flooring market and practical industry advice, this episode is packed with takeaways you won’t want to miss. 🎧 Tune in, share your thoughts, and join the conversation in the comments!

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Please visit our new website! https://thehuddle.team

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Huddle, your weekly playbook helping you gain forward progress in your flooring

career. Simply put, we're here to help you win. To all our new viewers, welcome to the

team. Today's episode is sponsored by Divergent Adhesives and NFCT.

They are having an event in October from the 20th I believe through the 24th in

Columbus, Ohio. Is that right, Daniel? Yes, sir. Over at um America Source.

Yeah, they got a they've got an amazing setup over there, man. If you haven't been out

there to just like take a look at what they got going on, it's worth the trip.

Well, I'll definitely have to get out there. I might go to this event to be honest with you. Um, and maybe even

bring a guy or two. Have to see what we can uh hook up. Today's topic, hard

surface horizons, flooring trends and industry highlights with Scott Rosemus.

Is that right? I asked you how to say it and then I just just

told them they say you're correct in two lands. So awesome. Well, as I said, Scott, we

really uh appreciate you joining us today and uh tell us a little bit about yourself.

Okay, so I'm the uh president and CEO of Floor Star Sales headquartered in Romeoville, Illinois. And our company is

a floor covering, hard surface floor covering distributor operating primarily in the upper Midwestern United States.

Um I'm in my 25th year here at Floorstar. It's a family-owned uh

business. Uh, and my father-in-law is the founder of of the business. We have

approximately 150 employees consolidated with our subsidiaries. Um, and uh, you know, excited to be here

and happy to have an opportunity to be on the show. Awesome. Well, we're we're happy to have you. We um we love these episodes when

we can tap into somebody's mind a little bit that's um you know in a different

part of the business than we are. I'm in the commercial floor covering world and

I own a piece of software and it's based around labor in the flooring and these

guys are commercial flooring savants and you know so we're always in the application and purchasing and chasing

around jobs and estimating and so we come from that perspective a lot and it's really nice to have a different

perspective especially on hard surface uh topics. because um we'd love to have more of

that. Can you tell me at um at your distributorship, it's a full-on

distributorship in the upper northeast, you said? Um upper Midwest. So kind of Upper Midwest.

Yeah, basically Big 10, Big 12 if you're a sports fan area of the country. Yeah. Gotcha. And primarily hard surface or do

you kind of play? 98 99% hard surface. Yes. Awesome.

uh you want to tap uh you want to uh mention a few of the brands you carry?

Yeah. So uh brands that folks probably have heard of would be you know Armstrong and Tarquette, Johnite, Bruce

um those are you know major brands. We also have in-house uh which is a phenomenal uh product line out of

Germany. Artex, SECA, um Henry's, uh on the um supply side,

all the stuff we use. Yeah. Tego. Yeah. I mean, uh and we're blessed, uh with some of the strongest

brands in the country. Yeah, that's a good lineup. Those Yeah.

is uh the bulk of your um your dealers,

are they commercial, residential, or is it pretty even? Uh well, there's a mix. There's a really

healthy mix. Uh and so, uh that's that's really good for the business. Um, you

know, we're never doing quite as well as some of our peers that focus on segments, but we tend to kind of average

out um, you know, because when one area is really busy, another area might be

slow, but there's always some part of the business that's that's busier, which is a good thing.

Yeah. So, you don't have those big highs and low high and low dips is what you're saying. Correct.

Gotcha. Right. Like in the commercial world, we see everything just like taking off and then you see it start start dwindling

down and it's like, "All right, I guess I guess we're going to do a little bit of residential now."

Yeah. Yeah. That's something, you know, an example of that was uh when everybody went through COVID, so when COVID

started and everything shut down, there was a commercial backlog that continued uh because a lot of that was

considered essential because it was healthcare related. So that was very helpful uh for the business and then um

that got sucked up. So you know guys like Daniel and Jose probably were scrambling you know uh where's the next

work going to come from um and we were too but then as the country opened up the residential remodeling work was

healthy and so you know that that helped us because we were segmented into both.

Yeah, I think we did a lot we do a lot of hospital work. So, it was and at the

time that CO happened, we were actually in the process of doing a brand new hospital and then it just

it let us um focus on that stuff. So, we didn't

really have to scramble too much. It was it was nice. But then I think a lot of

it was um more of the DIY stuff. Everyone was calling like they would

call us for just product like, "Hey, do you have some product that we can sell because everyone is basically out,

right? All the big box stores were selling things like crazy cuz everyone

just had nothing to do but home improvement." Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we we experienced a little bit different because we had two massive

uh we also do a ton of hospital work but new and remodel at our two major

hospitals here and we had we were in the middle of like wings of the hospital and

so they shut our projects down. We had really about two and a half million dollars worth of work to shut down

because of the they didn't want anybody in the hospital because it was an operating hospital.

And so they were like, you know, you you're riding the same elevators. A couple people got CO during the

transition time and so they decided to shut those down and postpone them. So we were scrambling. Uh did did some other

work that we probably normally wouldn't have done to start filling some gaps. So that's good. Well, we're here today to

talk about like what you see coming down the pipe. Uh just kind of some of your

insights about where the both since you have such a healthy mix. And the reason

I asked was to ask you, you know, both sides of the coin. What are you seeing in commercial? What kind of um new

products maybe we don't know about yet? Our reps haven't gotten out to us, but they're talking to you guys about at the

distributor level. and um also what you see in the residential world. What's uh

what's kind of kicking hot? Sure. So, I'll start with the commercial. Uh it's probably, you know,

a little more familiar to uh the team here. Um so, one of the big trends there

uh centers around technology that

hard surfree. Um so, you know, kind of a health conscious uh focus. uh they are uh you

know that's driven uh by a variety of honestly governmental entities asking

for and demanding that. So you know it's kind of a a very big trend in Europe. It's a big trend out on the west coast

with some healthcare systems and things like that where designers and architects

and end users are looking for that certainly as as an option. So that that

certainly is a trend. Um you know LVT in hard surface

commercial continues to be a popular trend because of the versatility it

provides in terms of style and design. Um and so you know we just see that continuing as well. Um at the same time

there's been a resurgence in VCT um you know which is kind of a tried and

trueue product. People may consider that it's a boring product. Um, but you know,

it performs and it's a very reliable product and u, you know, most of it's

made in North America including a bunch is made here in Illinois where we are. So, you know, there's there's good

supply chain for that product as well. Is there was there some backlog for that

product since it kind of left the market a little bit? you know, a lot of big players quit making it and then

Armstrong had their problem and so that went like south for a while. I know a

lot of uh designers around the Midwest here uh Witchaw, Kansas City area shied

away. They they were moving away from VCT anyway just because of the LVT story

of not having to wax and the the annual maintenance. But,

you know, not having any available is another big reason to to stop specifying it.

Yeah. So, I think a couple of things, Paul, to that. So, um uh first there

there was a period where there was some uncertainty in the marketplace. So, you know, Tarquette bought a plant

um in Mexico. They made an acquisition uh to be able to develop a fruit chip

product that's a little bit better quality. Um so there was a transition there and then at the same time

relatively speaking within a year of that um Armstrong uh declared bankruptcy

and so a company AHF bought the assets and the brand um and in that acquisition

acquired factory in Kiki Illinois where Armstrong BCT was made. So there was a

period of uncertainty in the marketplace. Uh but you know that that was settled out three years ago and um

you know I think that you know since then we've seen the category resurge because there is you know certainty and

and quality of reliability of supply you know made a comment about

the maintenance and so forth. So, it's very interesting and I don't know if you guys encounter this with your clients,

but you know, sometimes the this LDT maintenance story is sold to an end user such as a school. Oh, you don't have to

strip, you don't have to polish. The maintenance crew still come in and strip and you know, uh there's still that

cost. Um and uh you know, so that's kind of a misnomer when it comes to relative

to LVT. Um that there's this huge maintenance delta. In reality, that's

not really the case because there's a certain amount of maintaining of a floor

that's necessary in a commercial space or any floor is going to look ugly and unattractive. Um, you know, so you know,

it it it there's truth to that, don't get me wrong, and there's some chemicals that are used in maintenance that sometimes people don't want being used

to maintain, you know, certain types of floors. Uh, but by and large, if you

have a commercial space and you have a floor, you got to take care of it. You got to clean it, you got to mop it, you gotta work at it.

um you know so yeah I think the annual uh strep and rewax is the main thing but um the delta

is not as big as when I think we all seen the charts when LVT kind of first

hit the market in a big way where multiple manufacturers I mean it's been

around for many many many years but when everybody and their brother had a has an

LVT now as that started to happen you got those charts showing you, you know,

well, annual maintenance at this dollar figure. Truth is is that they did they're not

figuring any hardly any maintenance for theirs was the problem for the LBT side.

And I'm a big LBT fan, but I also know what you just said and I'm Daniel was

shaking his head like Yeah. when um m the the the thing that we found even

with like quartz flooring that doesn't necessarily have to be waxed either is

when you have a janitorial um I'll say community that has done

things the same way for 30 years and then you're and you think they're just

going to switch overnight and stop doing that. We've get I can't count how many square feet of LVT is waxed right now,

you know, because Absolutely right. No, you're you're absolutely right. The other thing too that sometimes is lost in the story is

um the VCT floors last a long time if they're properly maintained. And so

there's a value to the school district, let's say, or the office complex or

society uh in the fact that that flooring is staying down and isn't getting ripped out and thrown in a

landfill or things like that, too. There's a there's an equation that has a

lot of elements to it that people I think need to look at. You know, ultimately there's a lot of reasons that

one or another variety of flooring may be a correct choice for a particular end user at a particular time. But, you

know, sometimes um you know, folks are are kind of given boogeyman stories that aren't really accurate if you ask

questions. Yeah. Yeah. And there's certainly if you want your LVT staying looking nice. You got

to have a good uh maintenance program, cleaning mainly, you don't have to wax it. I mean, I've got clients that have

had it down for 10, 15 years and they maintain it well and it looks wonderful.

Uh but to to think that you don't have to maintain it in some manner um you

know one of my clients uses a new like an ionized water and you know so he's

buying things too to keep his LVT looking as sharp as possible

and that's a church so they want it to look you can refinish the LVT now too. So

never never strip and they they've come out with what's that other one? Um,

never strip and uh there's another one that can wax LBT or seal LVT or

whatever. The big problem I found with LVT and I love the product and there's a

lot of good products, but subpar products. The biggest problem I have found is the gapping on the lower cost.

If you start to get an LBT that's cost of VCT, you're you know, we've found that

gapping I don't like you can glue it. First off, just my inspector friends out

there, you know, LVT is supposed to be dimensionally stable. So, it shouldn't matter about the adhesive. You should be

able to lay that floor without adhesive and it not gap. It's supposed to be dimensionally stable. Uh put in correct

conditions, obviously. But that being said, the gapping and all that, well,

VCT will gap on you, too. But if it's properly waxed, um, and maintained, that

wax actually holds that VCT more into a monolithic sheet. Uh, I've we've got a

grocery chain that we did BCT for years for, and they would wax that stuff 24

hours afterwards, five coats, and they put a coat on. They would strip a coat

and put a coat on every month. I mean, they were always maintaining it. But

that LVT, the joints, except for concrete movement or building movement,

those joints looked like the day we installed it because that that wax helps hold it all together.

Yeah. Just a little sales pitch for the BCT dudes out there.

Hey, you know what? Separates installers, man. Yeah, it's a good product here. So um so

that's you know some of the trends on the commercial side and we can delve into that a little bit more depending on

what else you want to talk about but on the residential side I wanted to also answer your question Paul so what we're

we're seeing there is um there's a trend uh with a lot of interest in hardwood

flooring um it's had a resurgence uh you know natural product adds value to the

home there's a lot of versatility uh you know with some sty style and design uh

that that comes with hardwood flooring. So, you know, that's that's been an interesting trend. uh the market I think

um you know went through a phase where there was an obsession with SPC

waterproof flooring uh you know product that that you know provided some solutions but perhaps was oversold uh

marketwide you know in in total um you know to folks uh where there was a

perception that it was a problem free product and the reality is um anything that you walk on roll stuff on have pets

on, live on, operate on, and then expect to have a design and fashion element is

going to have problems, you know, because it's warm and look good and um that that's a challenge. So, you know,

well, let go ahead. I was just going to uh ask you, you know, we we noticed a

big trend around here where upperend homes were putting this stuff in and I'm

personally on the market for a new home and so been looking and I almost just turn around, walk out if I walk on LVT

in a house that I'm going to buy. Um it it seems like they got

like icing milliondoll plus homes even having SBC put in throughout the house.

Is that trend going more back towards where it belongs in the the hardwood

area or tile that kind of thing? You know, it depends on the the builder, the

community. U you know, subdivisions even um different different builders have different strategies. I mean, they're

running businesses, too. And uh if you look at the earnings of some of the publicly traded builders, uh they they

seem to do quite well. It's uh very interesting to see what product that we

might uh sell a client uh ends up kind of going to the consumer at once the

builder is is done with it. Uh but with that said, I think one of the reasons for the trend you saw, Paul, was um you

know, that that product category, the SPC category did lend itself to having installations with very large expanses

without a need for moldings. And um you know, folks often don't like seeing T-

moldings in doorways. It breaks up the flow of the floor. Uh but but sometimes

especially in the past um they were necessary for that product to be able to expand and contract and perform so that

in the end it it did what the consumer or the owner of the space felt it was going to do. Um so it was a necessary

evil. So here comes a product category where someone says you don't need moldings and the refrigerator or

dishwasher can flood and nothing's going to happen and so on and so forth. So it it got a lot of traction um within a lot

of marketplaces and it was an interesting product to builders in part because it suggested that it would

eliminate disappointed customers, callbacks and so on. So that's why you know uh it was used and and everybody in

the industry was participating in that category to some degree. Oh yeah. And then you just look back

like we talked about like COVID and the DIY stuff and and and everything and then just people the installers not

knowing what you can and can't go over. Right. So I seen this this picture on Facebook the other day. So I'm going to

share it because this like this hits home because there's so many installers that say, "Oh no, we can just go over

everything with it." and then they go over some slatted hardwood and then you don't realize that you're essentially

creating a a vapor barrier and then that moisture has nowhere to go. So, it's going to go into the wood that's

underneath, make it bubble and then Yeah. Right.

It's is gasping for air, brother. That's what it wanted. And you know, and it it's the part about an installer and you

say you're an installer. you're you're selling out of a out of a store and you're trying to save the client money.

So, you don't do all the research and this is the result that happens when you

don't know. You you don't want to tell them because you feel bad that hey, we should we should encapsulate this. We

should do some kind of underllayment some some kind we we have to put something between this uh LVP and your

ex existing wood substrate otherwise failure is eminent. It's hard to say that to a client who was already

Well, yeah, because you sold them on a a cheaper product and you had $2.50 50 cents a foot in underllayment and now

you're getting really close to the hardwood cost and it's like I I also

What do you think uh any of you guys actually but the the I

the selling of it that you mentioned Scott kind of oversold that product

that that was um partially from the installation standpoint too that anybody

can do it like it just you don't need to worry about subfloor prep like going over stuff. That's where a lot of the

failures I see happen is that people just don't understand that it's a system

that has to, you know, and a system has to have a good foundation. And so many

uh people just even in installers who maybe did uh soft surfaces and jumped

into it without any training or you know any formal industry um support in that

way. They didn't go get trained. They just, hey, this stuff clicks together. It's simple and I use chopsaw for it.

Yeah, that's Anybody can put Legos together, but you know, I'm not going to sit there and go to Legoland and go buy all those little

models and say that I'm putting those together, right? Like I could do this. No, I I I have to read the directions to

glue one piece at a time. Well, that's you, right? But, you know, Jose's right though and and and you make a great point. Jose is

right. One of the um challenges that arose is that we do have a product that

by and large wouldn't click and lock together. And you know what was lost a

little bit in the noise is that there are a variety of locking systems that

are on the marketplace. There's some variance but there's there's a couple of competing models that are patented and

then there's variance of those models. And the reality is that the techniques

to lock them together are a little different in terms of do you tap it and what does tap mean? Because some people

want to pound, you know, and hit and and you know, and what is angle and and so

there there were some nuances there. And to to Jose's point, if if people were educated

um and went through the right process, these products all should perform and will perform. But what happened with

some of them and and then the manufacturers um because there's numerous people getting in this business

uh as it as it ramped up and to make this product didn't require a substantial investment on the

manufacturing part relative to other products. So you had a lot of overseas manufacturers jump in start competing

and what do you do to take price out? You take out the quality of the core

product thinner. And what you do is you set up the installer for trouble when

they put something in and and maybe they're not versed in this locking

system or that because they all seem to be the same but they're not. There could be a tendency to damage especially end

joints and that would manifest itself 18 months later, two years later. Um and

and so you have people that are unhappy now now with the product. And you know what's sad is there's some really good

products out there and a lot of retailers are shying away from the whole category.

And again it's because people don't want to educate themselves on what caused these failures. How do we prevent them

in the future? Uh and how do we how do we use this product category in the right way to add value to people but not

oversell it? And that's that's why you get involved and you

when you say get involved, that's why we all have to have a a a real passion for

training. And you know, NFCT, I mentioned it early on, they're having

an event in Columbus, Ohio on October 20th, and it's at the America Floor

Source. The That's going to be a That's heat welding and flash coing, right

Daniel? Yep. But NASCAT also teaches proper

techniques for installing uh glue down LVP and LBT click

rigid core all of it and and and you have training entities out there that you can get

involved with. For all my installers who watch this, get involved.

I hate even saying get involved. Go get trained. You're a professional. go to reach out to the NAFCT, reach out to

CFI, reach out to, you know, AFT, any of them. But I tell you, NAFFC has some of

the best people who are going to teach you this particular category of flooring.

I mean, just the networking aspect and like Scott was saying, you know, the thinner you go and then different

locking mechanisms. You think about the locking mechanism in general and the thinner you go, the less it has to lock

into itself, right? You're essentially looking at like a one millimeter on each side that it's trying to lock into and

then it just makes it that much easier to break over time. Yeah. Well, those core the tongues break on

that. You know, that's what took Wilson art out of the flooring business was when they made that first commercial

floater LVP. We we actually did that product at a hospital here

and I can't you know they're out of business so I'm not that part of their business

is gone. So, I'm not too worried about talking about it, but you know, multiple

areas the tongue had broken off and it took just the slightest bit of flex and

even if you were within, but they they sold the product and this is going back to how manufacturers present their

products that I think can can cause us some some trouble. But they posed their product as being able to bridge things

up to I can't remember but you know further than it could obviously I think

it was a quarter inch. Well that type of flex ended up breaking the tongue and then you just have

this happening with your with your plank. So yeah, there's been a lot of challenges through there and I'm glad to

see that people are at least becoming more aware uh that these these

difficulties are out there and it's nothing to play with like you really you know unless you are a avid DIYer and you

don't care. I would tell you to do your own house if you want to, but as long as

you understand the risks of doing it on your own because I guarantee you if the floor fails,

uh, in inspectors 99% of the time will find out what you did not do right and

yeah, it's likely that an install issue happened somewhere. You you made a point earlier as well, you know, um about the

challenge that the installation community has explaining that there's a way to do the

job correctly, the way to do it right, but it's going to add cost because they they may not have sold the product.

They, you know, you've got to put it in now. And so you you've got a scenario where it's typical, you know, um 316 and

10, right? uh you know I don't know a lot of subfloors that that are within

that spec. So now you got a really thin product. If if that subcore is not,

you know, patched, if it's not leveled, um that product is going to be susceptible to having an issue, um

especially if it's so thin that there's any damage to the locking mechanism when it's put and then they hang the

installer on that, you know, and at the end of the day, yes, it was installed by somebody that maybe could or should have

known better or could or should have done something differently, but you know, sometimes products while not being

designed effectively, they're not user friendly. Um, and I've had many times in my career

where um, the installation community pushes back on a product's difficulty

and and you know, individually difficult to change the world, but collectively

um, you know, retailers and contractors hear the message and they will shy away from a product that is causing problems.

So, I certainly would encourage people not to be shy about providing legitimate

feedback because I I want to know that as a distributor. I don't want to put product in the channel that folks don't

like to install, you know, because at at the end of the day, that product isn't going to be successful long term. And

and so, you know, that feedback is is helpful and and should be desired. And if somebody doesn't want to hear that,

you know, that that's some thing maybe to question about whether you want to get products from them. if they don't want to hear what are how they can make

them better and so on. So we have a question. Yeah, there's we've had a few podcasts where we have discussed the disconnect

between salesman and installer and what gets sold versus how the installer feels

kind of shoehorned into doing it a certain way because that's what was sold. But really what should happen is

over here. And I know that that will uh launch the comment sections a lot of

times because installers hate being in that position. We I'm an installer by

trade. They we don't like h being forced into

doing it incorrect and then if there's a call back it's back on us. So, there's that there's this dichotomy where

dealers and and retailers have to make sure that they're consulting with their installers,

uh, particularly, you know, um, on these kind of susceptible floors and make sure

that you're discussing these items with them. Involve them in part of your sales process. In fact, if you have a really

talented uh installation team, you should be selling based on the level of

quality that you are from installation because we all know the product looks great on the rack, but the real value

doesn't even get recognized until somebody puts their hands on it and does it right. So,

Daniel's getting ready to bring up this comment, but I'm I'm going to get to that in a second since we are talking about the

plank and everything. I did want to get with Scott on the like the resurgence of laminate. Like what do you see there?

Because I've been hearing everyone talk about just going back to laminate. Like I'm not even doing LVP anymore.

I don't even know why. Yeah. So there's a there's a I

appreciate that question. Um there's a few reasons for that trend and that is an accurate trend. Laminate is becoming

more popular again. There was a period when I first started in the industry in the early 2000s. Um it was the

alternative hard surface product. It was the hottest product. You know, you had wood and laminate. So that's when Wilson art was super popular. We were a huge

distributor for them. Um and then what happened in that category was there were a lot of good suppliers, but the home

centers got involved in that category in a big way. And no disrespect to them, but one of the things that they promote

is price. Um when you sell something for a low price, you often take the quality out. And there were variance in quality.

um that didn't perform as the categories people had expected it to based on you know brands like Ferggo, Wilson and so

forth. Uh and so it became less popular and and one of

challenges that laminate always had historically is that it has like a a wood fiber core uh and so the product

would be susceptible to water. Um if water sat on it for even a short amount of time, a few hours, you could have the

seams peak um and it might be irreversible. like that you'd have failures. The floor

would expand. It was a floating floor. So if it got moisture in it, it it could expand into that expansion space and

fail. Not dissimilar to the picture Daniel showed. Okay, that may be a different type of failure, but the floors would look like that. So people

shied away. Still sold a lot of it, but it diminished. It's resurged. Why? Uh manufacturers have developed enhanced

core technology. And so now you have core material that can withstand

lifestyle moisture exposure. By that I mean the dishwasher, the fridge, the dog

dish. As long as someone cleans it up, as long as someone isn't like wet mopping that floor, which people used to

do as well, there's maintenance challenges back in the day. Um, today's laminates really stand up if they're

from a reputable supplier. Um the other thing about laminate that uh sets it

apart from let's say SPC is they're able to print um the the product. Um they're

able to manufacture the visual layer. It's it's got more depth to it. It's more striking. Um and so it's a little

bit of a stronger design element as an overall category. I mean you could have very beautiful LVT SPC and very ugly

laminate, you know, because it depends where you are in the quality spectrum. But if you take an average laminate and

an average LVT product, someone could make the laminate look more beautiful

and more realistic, there's more you could do with it, right? So, so there's all these features about laminate that

always lent itself to being an alternative to hardwood flooring for people with either budget or lifestyle

issues back in the day. Those those attributes remain and and in the

meantime, the industry has figured out how to enhance the core. So, you're away for the weekend, your refrigerator

overflows, your floor probably will be okay. You know, if you have the right quality floor with today's core

technology, you know, if you get water in your basement, there's an inch of water, that's a whole different,

you know, that's different. Or your toilet overflows and gets around the edges and gets underneath the

product, all that kind of stuff. But, uh, it's a great pro. I mean, laminate's a great product and and it is

it is coming back. You've had some, you know, the industry leaders have have done a great job. Um, you know, Mohawk

has marketed their product. It's a lam. Revit is a laminate product and a lot of people don't even realize that, you

know, and and um, you know, they're they're buying it based on how it looks and and how it's going to perform. uh

you know and what's true of that product is true of a lot of the competitive products in the category, but they've done a good job positioning it um you

know to kind of enhance the perceived value. Yeah, they they've got some really good marketing over there at Mohawk.

Yes. Yep. Yeah. Lot of money. Provide a lot of marketing. So

that's where I was going to go with some of that. A a lot of uh a lot of uh purchases are based off of

uh how well the marketing is and you had mentioned the Revwood and you're right their displays are a little bit better.

The material seems to be a little more the the it's thicker than your standard

laminate or SPCs or rigid cores. So it appears to have a

larger value than than it is than it might I guess in the long term. Um, now

if you tell somebody it's a laminate, they're going to say, "Look how thick that is. There's no way that's a laminate. What is that? 12 12

millimeter. What is that?" And you're right, presentation, a company with

marketing goes a long way. Well, and add a good installer to that mix and you actually can have a really

nice floor put in 100%. You know, Kevin brought uh we we were uh

I know that Daniel was trying to get this one out there. Kev Kevin asks us what are the benefits of PVC free

flooring and how will this help with dimensional stability issues? Yeah. So PVC free is is uh more related

to the health aspects of the flooring although there is a a related story on dimensional stability as well there. So

PVC is polyvinyl chloride. Um there is data out there that associates polyvinyl

chloride with bad health outcomes for people sometimes, right? So you you

could do the research online. I want to be careful about making legal statements and so forth and so sure PVC is not considered a healthy

chemical. Um, so particularly in health related industries or people that have

allergies, asthma, things like that, they're looking for alternatives. Looking for very healthy floor. So a PVC

free floor is is on average a healthier

floor to some than a PVC floor because it doesn't have polyinyl chloride in it. And if you think polychloride is bad or

if it is bad, you know, PVC4 doesn't have it. With that said, to um Hem's

question, there are products out there. So, for example, there's a product from in-house. People can research it. It's

called Icon. There's a sister product called Gallery. It's it's made with a substance called camin. So, it's ceramic

powder. And the whole product is made out of this powder. They print on it. So, there's nothing that can delaminate.

Um the powder is inert. And then um it's combined with polyropylene which is a

healthier plastic provides flexibility. It comes out of Germany but that plastic

as made in Germany it meets the German standards for toys. It's 25% postconsumer

and it's also dimensionally stable. It's like it's an inert product. I mean it's

a threeseason room product. You can go 100 feet by 100 feet without transitions with that product. So their goal was to

make it PVC free as a byproduct of how this particular manufacturer made it. They have a massive like an awesomely

dimensionally stable product. But just because something's PVC free doesn't automatically mean it's dimensionally

stable. If that answers the uh the viewer's question. I think that's where like that question

lies, right? Because once you just call something PVC free, it can really be made of anything else. Yeah, that's the

that's what I was gonna um flooring, right? PVC hardwood

flooring. Yeah, because because you know really where PVC is typically going to be found is in a vinyl product. Um and and it's

it's a historic component of the manufacturing process. I'm not a manufacturer. But but you know as uh

time evolves and as manufacturing techniques change you know all these engineers that graduate from schools

they find alternate materials that will achieve the same or better performance without having some of the maybe adverse

effects or challenges that historic components might have. And and that's how you get products um like the product

I talked about. There's a lot of sheet goods, commercial sheet that's coming out that's PVC free as well. and a lot

of bio what they call biiobase or you know polyurethane homogeneous style uh

in the commercial world and you know in the commercial side I think architects and owners like this

idea of cradle to grave or cradle to cradle kind of um stuff that you get

with and with the biiobased tiles and such and a lot of healthc care has it in it.

Uh we've got a large hospital. We're doing a large sum of the of uh some some

biobased uh LVT I would say or biiobased vinyl

tile I guess would be the the more appropriate way to say it. But it's it comes from it's got oils and all this

other stuff in it. So it's like what is the stuff made of? And then you get into

adhesives and and how those play in with all of this. Uh I've been through my

share of adhesive issues over the years. And by the way, shout out to Divergent Adhesives again, one of our sponsors for

this episode. Uh high quality adhesives that meet today's, you know, demanding

uh standards. Uh go check out Divergent. That being said, um, a lot of the these

new products, we used to take the stance of like, well, you can't tell me what adhesive to use. That's what as a

commercial contractor, man, we've we've almost exclusively just went with whatever the manufacturers adhesive is

anymore. um we we lose some margin because of that because we're we we

would buy truckloads of of adhesive um for your your pressure sensitive or

back in the day the thin spread for the VCT or such. But, um, now with all these

different manufacturing methods and I I'm I'm I would say I'm I try to stay up

pretty well on the new stuff, but man, I can't even keep up with it. And I I just

relinquish to buy the manufacturers's provided adhesive for that product.

Yeah, that's that's a smart policy to avoid issues if there's ever a problem. It takes a question off the table if you

use the supplers's adhesive. Um, if someone has a go-to adhesive that they

know, love, and trust, my advice, uh, for your listeners would be if they want

to use something particularly on a larger job, a commercial job that is not the branded adhesive with the flooring,

uh, you can always ask the manufacturer if they'll sign off on on that. Um, and,

uh, you know, a lot of them will. um if it's a reputable adhesive. Sometimes they won't for whatever reason. Uh it's

case by case, but that that's another angle that you could um consider. If

it's a particularly large project, there may be an adhesive that someone has used and is comfortable with um that they

believe should work based on its formulation relative to the manufacturers. I would either use the

manufacturer's adhesive or have them sign off on on that because then if there's a claim that's that's one

fingerpointing that that can't occur then. Yeah. Yeah. It's that and I mean we we

try to stay up on it. I know Daniel and Jose do as well, but I mean, we're not chemists. And at the end of the day,

reading through a a a sheet, a MSDS sheet for a an adhesive, trying to

figure out if it'll work. Yeah, you you can take those those um I don't know,

calculated risks. And we've done it. uh we still have stocked uh you know

pressure sensitive adhesive for your day in dayout kind of thing. But if you're dealing particularly in this new realm

what we were just talking about with PVC uh free uh biiobased tiles this stuff uh

certain rubber flooring companies um you know utilizing their their rubber

flooring adhesive I think it's just a a safer bet than going out on your own and um because we

just don't know I mean rubber you know it's rubber is is is rubber, but you get

into some of these other alternatives to LVT nowadays and it's like you almost

have to be a chemist to be able to make that call. And so be very careful is my my cautionary tail to all my my

installer friends out there. I mean, we were talking to Robert last week and that's what he said. You know, installers need to know this stuff and

we basically need to be on level with these chemists and scientists and you need to know about

understand how to read it. Wood, moisture, it's it's a lot when you're when all the fingers are pointing at you

at the end of the day. That's right. First, they figure out uh what happens if it fails,

right? If if no one's ever being held accountable for for the failures because of a system that they're being told to

use from a a flooring contractor, they're never going to learn. But, you know, and and they can change their name

and file a new DBA if they're a proprietor. They can dodge a bullet, but it's uh integrity. How much integrity do

you have behind that? You don't want that bang on your reputation. What was you gonna What was

you saying, Scott? I was going to say, you know, part of the reason that there's

I guess a push to use that recommener, the branded adhesive, the man responsible manufacturers, they do test

it. They do test it to make sure it's compatible with the flooring, you know. So, that that is, you know, a valid

reason. Um, uh, it's not just you stay, the reason you stay out of trouble is they've they've tested and pre-approved

it. That's why I made the reference to, you know, you could always ask the supplier if there's a different adhesive you want to use because many times the

manufacturer of the flooring isn't actually manufacturing the branded adhesive

that goes with their flooring. it has the same brand uh but but an adhesive

focused manufacturer is making that and then just putting it under the manufacturer's label which means there

may be an alternate out there in the universe that people know about but won't publish that is acceptable because

it's a very similar or the same formula again I I'm not on the inside of the manufacturer I'm not saying it's

identical but I can say that over 25 years we've had suppliers approve adhesives on big projects that weren't

theirs but they might want to test that they might want to go through a process. So, you have to build that into the

timeline as well if if that's a route someone wants to go. Yeah. And you you can fight that. A lot of them I mean, you can I mean, Kevin

brings this exact point up about is it even legal for them to make you use

their private label. I mean, the large manufacturers, your Parabon, your Royal adhesives and your your Mes and such,

they make most of the adhesives for everybody, but they will specially make

it. I mean, I have literally called Mape Pay to find an alternative

to a manufacturer stuff and they're like, "We can't sell that." Yeah, we do make it, but I can't sell that.

And whether it's legal or not, Kevin, I would say is not what I'm talking about.

I'm saying the headache and working through a claim process with another

adhesive is just with an adhesive that is not the manufacturer's recommended adhesive is just a headache. It's not

that they can force you into it because I think that has been uh fought multiple

times. The adhesive manufacturer, whoever you bought it from, a lot of times will come to back for you. At least from that aspect. Now, whether or

not it's installed correctly, that's a whole different deal. But from the aspect of whether you can use their

adhesive for that product or not, your adhesive manufacturer will go to bat for you. However, you still just it's just

the nasty fight that I was talking about that uh I try to avoid by just using

their adhesive. Yeah. to to address Kevin's question to clarify in case something I said I came

out wrong. What we were talking about was not that the manufacturer, let's say

Armstrong or Tarquette, they wouldn't insist that somebody use an adhesive that wasn't branded Armstrong or so if

it's an Armstrong floor, Armstrong is going to say, "Use an Armstrong branded adhesive. This adhesive goes with this

product." Tquette will say, "This adhesive goes with this product. If you use them correctly, you will be fine. we

will stand behind it. What I was referring to is that sometimes the installer may be comfortable with SECA

or R Henry's from Artex or MAP or whatever whatever reputable brand of

adhesive they use on all their jobs day in and day out and they may want to bring that

adhesive onto a project with let's say an Armstrong floor, a Tarquet floor, some competitive product floor. Um

before you would do that, I would always make sure that that manufacturer is comfortable even with a reputable brand

that is not their own before you you install particularly something large where there's an exposure. So to the

extent that I you know didn't explain that correctly hopefully that clarifies it.

Yeah, I think uh hit we all know that you know these the flooring

manufacturers don't always make the adhesives and very rarely make their own adhesive

but whether or not you go outside that getting their sign off is what you're

saying like no matter what adhesive you're using as long as it's a reputable brand getting a sign off from your

manufacturers just one more it's a little extra effort ahead of time But man, can it save you some headache in

the in the future? Better to do it ahead of time than to do it in the claims process because then you're scrambling for information,

right? Yeah. And and if it's a big project, you might need to have AR you might need to have a lot of people sign it off on that

if you're going to, you know, really want to make sure that everyone's comfortable. So again, what we see is

it's I mean, we measure the the amount of time that the branded adhesive is used. And it's not it's not used as

often as as we would like to see. Um and whenever there's a claim, that's one of

the first things we worry about, right? Because um if a supplier's adhesive

wasn't used, they're going to justifiably have questions, you know, and then that that's starts to be

uncomfortable um you know, right away. Well, do you guys get asked all the time, Daniel? Uh, because we get asked

almost every order, uh, where's your adhesive if we are not ordering the adhesive.

oftentimes we're not ordering the adhesive when we order the product because because you already have some from a

inst either have it or it's the the project itself isn't going to like we're

not going to be on the project installing but we want to get it in house but I don't want my adhesive sitting on the shelf getting old

waiting 6 months for the project to start sometimes for a year right because

you're like I don't buy the one year shelf life I'm not going to wait that year with it on the shelf

Yeah. So I I but I get that question almost every time I order from one of

the manufacturers. not not usually if it's a distributed product but if it's a manufactured product uh or manufacturers

um you know like a Nora or a ecosurfaces or a Shaw or a Patre like you're buying

direct from the manufacturer the um you know they they've put my orders on hold

because I didn't order the adhesive and I'm like I got to send them an email saying we're not ordering adhesive until

we're closer to the project. Right. And there's other reasons to do it. Uh on really small jobs, I I know

some certain adhesives that'll work just as good for certain rubber floors. And

um you know, I don't want to use your adhesive. I want to use this one that is I've put plenty of this product down

with. And so there is some sometimes when you it's okay to have that fight,

but um in general I find that the manufacturers almost like they'll stop

you. Do you guys have that that happen when you guys manufacturers like

Technofloor, right? Technoflor would come back and be like, "Hey, you're not ordering any adhesive. We're not going

to sell you this without adhesive." And I'm like, "Guys, I just did this phase of this project and I still have this

much adhesive left." And they're like, "Oh, yeah, you're right. That was only like 3 months ago, so you're good."

Yeah. Well, that's So, there's a big push. I guess the point is there's a big push from the manufacturers to use their product, and

Scott pointed out why. I mean, they have done the testing. Um, and of course it's

not like we're I mean unless you're going to do a long-term test and a 24-hour bond test

is not a true test of whether or not it's going to stay from the aspect of if

it's the right adhesive or not. You know, just 24-hour bond testing money when you're not using their

adhesive because their compat compatibility doesn't necessarily mean it's the best adhesive. It just means

that it'll work with it. But there's a couple. Yeah, I don't know.

Um I I would say I would say I am playing it safe by using the

adhesive that is recommended by the manufacturer. So that way the warranties are covered. If it proves to not be

compatible and doesn't perform, then I want that to be their fault, not mine. Yeah.

Well, we don't I I have an example from earlier in my career. There's a national

customer all over, you know, there locations all over the country. They dictated that the manufacturer's entire

system be used. Um, you know, someone cut a corner and didn't use the

recommended patch and adhesive system. There was a failure and the operations

people at this national end user buried the installers. I mean, the installation

company ate all those floors because they did and it was like no because it was in the contract that you know. So,

that's a little bit of a different example because the customer was requiring it. But the reason the customer was requiring it because it was

if they had a problem, they were going to bypass everybody. They were going to bypass the installation firm, us, they

were to go right to the manufacturer and say, "Hey, this was done by the book. Fix, you know, you're dealing with

getting this fixed." and and once that equation didn't exist, you know, so I'm

saying you gota, you know, Kevin's point may be valid, right? That somebody may make a superior product and the

manufacturers is compatible, but the manufacturer has done the testing or standing. So, like I said in Kevin's

example, if there's a superior, ask the supplier to sign off on it. They may do it. I mean, I've seen them do

that, you know. I've seen them do that, but you've got to do that way ahead of time because there's a process involved. you

know, you can't you can't wait until it's ready, the job's ready to go. They will it's never going to happen, you

know. So, I'm gonna do a time check here just super quick. Are you okay to go over a little bit, Scott?

I I I am if you guys I know Daniel wanted to talk about career opportunities and so so yeah, I wanted

to make sure we had time for I'm happy to. Yeah. So, I just want to I got a couple minutes. Actually, I got

to drop off my son's football gear because he left it in my truck today and they moved practice up. Family first. just just that, you know,

to end this one, it's we're we're not saying only use this. If you're comfortable with something, by all

means, if if you want to use that, just get an okay before you do, right?

Because there they are like Kevin works with uh Robert's QEP and so there's systems that people have. Um, we use a

lot of utenine and there's if you build that system, if you just look at the hard tile aspect, if you're using one

system all the way through, you get a way better warranty than if you're piecing things together. And it's kind of like the same thing.

So, you're right. We're not saying don't use what you want to use, just use get get an okay.

Yeah. Well, there's a reason everybody has that that term. Everybody calls their their their system a system, right?

Well, we have a system for that. And if if one individual, one manufacturer was better at making an entire system, then

we'd be installing Roberts from subfloor substrate prep all

the way through to the to the finished product, right? They would have the they would have hold on the entire thing. Unfortunately, different manufacturers

are better at creating different systems. And I'm Well, there's competitors out there for

a reason. Yes. you know, nobody's ever going to be in that position because someone's going to say, "Hey, this is a

one-man show marketplace. We can we need to figure I mean, smart people are always going to create competition." I

think that the overarching thing that Daniel was closing out with is just be

aware like Scott said, use your head and know that there's risk involved. And so

if you're going to go with a different adhesive, follow the the line the guidelines and it that that have been

laid out in this podcast and just ask. It doesn't harm anybody to just ask for

permission and then get the get the blessing and then go forward. Um just

trying to save you guys some major headaches in the future. And I've I've went through them. Gone are the days of

putting broad loom down with parabon, you know, uh, adhesive. Like you you

there's adhesive for just about anything, you know. Um, so

go ahead, Daniel. You had some other stuff we were going to work into here. Yeah. Kevin just says, you know, search

up the system warranties and absolutely. Um, yeah. I just, you know, Scott works

with a distributor and we always talk about what can you do as an installer once you're done on your knees. So, I

just wanted to kind of touch on, you know, any opportunities that he sees um other than installing for the installers

that are, I don't know, injured, they're just over it, whatever. Um, as a

hand of it anymore, right? Like Right. Yeah. So I mean there there's a host of opportunities within the industry both

at the distribution and manufacturing level. I would assume at retail I have less experience there. But uh someone

that has installed has I mean just look at the conversations you know today. I

mean the three of you gentlemen vastly outclass me with your technical knowledge because you've been on job

sites. You know the way the world works. You understand the products and how they work together and so on. So that that

experience and that skill and having done it yourself is invaluable to manufacturers and distributors for roles

such as technical salespeople, regional representatives. And so we have several salespeople that at some point in their

career worked as flooring installers and were outstanding flooring installers and

they reached a point where that's not what they wanted to focus on. They wanted something different. Um and they

went into outside field sales. And so the value that someone with that background can bring to a retailer

because there's a wide degree of sophist sophistication levels when it comes to technical uh when when people are

operating a flooring store. Um and and to have somebody that can go in and when

you're selling a product, it's easy to sell a product when there's never a problem, right? When someone has a

question, when something's going wrong in a job site and that distributor salesman or that manufacturer representative can on a phone call with

a video or with some sort of email follow provide a solution to bail somebody out of like a jam where they're

stuck. I mean that that is invaluable because you're you're helping your client, you know, solve a problem and

and you know, make money or not lose money. And so, you know, that that's a path uh for sure. Uh related is, you

know, a lot of distributors operate via a branch system where they'll have folks at a counter that are selling the

product. Um people that have installation backgrounds are invaluable. I mean, they're tremendous. And if you

have uh language skills, if you're multilingual, bilingual, multilingual,

you're in huge demand to to uh you know, fill that role because you're able to

provide solutions to people that are coming in often day of or or you know, it's Friday, I'm doing this work on the

weekend or I'm going to be doing this work next week. They want someone that they could talk to, know, see, and trust

um to help them. you know, it's it's one thing that to have the product, but you know, here's the right product to use

for this. You know, here's the right product to use for that. Um, and so, you know, there's there's a variety of of

opportunities there and and people are looking for that all the time. I have peers that are desperate.

I think distributors mi miss that a little bit that the value of counter knowledge, like somebody who really

knows their stuff at a counter. Uh we had a distributor uh here that I went to

all the time when I installed because they had a guy that was an old installer that was absolutely fantastic at working

through issues sometime just go have coffee with him on Friday morning and talk through you know some

complications. Yeah. And so I mean there uh folks are

always looking for talent like that you know to help them. The challenge of

course is if you live in Chicago and I'm looking for somebody in South Dakota,

you know, then you have to make a choice, you know, because somebody may not be looking for a particular skill

set at a particular time. But I would submit that there's always people looking, right? And so uh if there's

someone that is uh focusing their career on installing today and they see that at

some point down the road, that may not be what they want to continue doing. What I would encourage them to do is to

use their context, use their network to to find ways to be introduced to

manufacturers, distributors, large retailers, for example, um that are

going to have positions that are going to be opening up or you're going to be expanding. I'm going to need somebody.

If if the business knows that in two or three years when I'm going to be growing or making this move, you know, Daniel is

looking to do X Y and Z, you know, there could be a runway, you know, from the installation focused career to a related

career where, you know, maybe there's less stress on the body or there's a different challenge that someone wants to pursue. Um, and and that's what I

would encourage folks to do is, you know, build a network, build the contacts now, and then as your plans

change, you can just let your contacts know and they'll come to you with with

positions. I mean, there's a shortage of skill out there. Um, both to install and

then to explain to people how to install. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. Can I recap uh

some of the headliners? Uh LV uh LBT is not the cure all for all flooring. Uh

SPC uh laminates making a comeback. Hardwood is resurging. I I heard that

from the NWFA as well. Um and uh solid hardwood too. I mean solid

and natural wood. Yeah, solid hardwood. I did write that one. Solid hardwood's coming back too among, you know, which is interesting. So,

I love it because I had hardwood in my house and one of the great things was just you could it is a permanent deal.

One thing that if you're a homeowner out there watching this, tile and hardwood, hardwood in

particular actually adds value to your home. Like it will it increases the

value of your home. Whereas LVT carpet, I don't care if you have 200 yard a

dollar a yard carpet in your house. It does not add a stitch of value to your home. Uh, same with your LVPs and your

floaters. I don't care how expensive your your laminate floor is. It is not

going to add value. That's just a side note. Now, I do got to turn off making a

comeback. I got to take off in a second, but I wanted to add to what you your little recap there. um with and this is going

to be directed to you Scott is with the items that are trending and everything that we're talking about and the

differences in some of the the hard surface as far as natural wood and SPCs, WPC's and uh laminate. Um,

what products are are you finding that are trending and coming back, becoming

more popular that maybe uh uh the installers are in the audience can

better prepare themselves for the next year or two as far as um brushing

like shortfalls in in the in the skill that for resurging product. It'd be like

if Broad made a comeback in in the commercial world, we are in trouble because I got like one Broadloom guy

left. Yeah. What can they what can they do to to better prepare themselves for for what's trending in in the near future?

Yeah, great question. I alluded to the solid hardwood. Um it's caught us, you know, it's a pleasant

surprise for us. Uh that's trending back. I think that's associated uh with a few things. I mean, vintage, right?

you know, there's a vintage is hot across many industries. So, um, you

know, just making sure that folks are up to speed on that. If if people have particular skill sets, we're looking at

getting involved in unfinished hardwood flooring installation. You know, that uh continues to be a very robust and viable

area. Um, I was speaking about pre-finished solid coming back being a surprise, but but those skill sets um I

think are are going to be in demand. Um and so folks were looking in that direction. Um you know on on the tile

side I would imagine Jose Daniel you guys are seeing this there's large format tile um that requires a skill set

that that is not basic you know just I mean you damage that I mean it's

expensive uh in and of itself. So, you know, just just kind of understanding that having the proper tools um and and

so forth if that's a space that one's in because the designers are going to continue to push that trend for larger

format um that that's hot right now as as well. Are you seeing the uh panels

take off continue to grow as well, the gauge porcelain panels or just or you

know because they've gotten to where they're building larger actual, you know, 38 porcelain and you know 3 foot

by 5 foot actual tile or they have, you know, 5

foot by 10 foot panels. I mean, we've installed a fair amount of that. Um are

the gauge panels I I see it being pushed everywhere, Paul, but we don't play heavily in that

space. So, I don't want to speak out of ignorance. I mean, I see it being marketed heavily, you know. So, usually

that's associated with some demand, but sometimes it's associated with just creating the demand in the first place.

So, I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, those large tiles, the the tile

and the panels. Um I mean, we were talking, you know, just to continue

um addressing what you brought up, Jose, if you Scott's saying there's a increase

in wood and hardwood, solid hardwood in particular. So, get with the NWFA. If

you are a installer out there and you want to add another skill set, make sure

you're starting with proper industry standard training. Get with the NWFA, go

to some of their stuff. Uh they they hold courses. If you're getting into um

you know, the larger panels, you got to be trained on that stuff. I'm telling you, it will um you know, a panel can

cost a couple thousand dollars and you break one and guess who's getting

getting charged for it. It's going to be the installer. So, you got to know how to handle them properly, have the proper

tools to handle them. Even larger format tile, you can't just lug those things around like you could a 24x 24. You need

suction cups and there's there's a lot of things that you can do. larger

snapping boards and things of that nature from Ruby and you know Sigma the

there's it's all out there but you got to get educated. So NTCA for tile the CTEF for tile get with the NWFA for

hardwood get with NFCT for your vinyls. When you start to do that and you build

a foundation of understanding uh the products and and a good educational foundation, you have a much higher

degree for success. And the other thing I would mention is uh sheet sheet goods. Um commercial

sheet flooring uh is invaluable. Uh it's in high demand. There are not enough

folks that have that expertise and I've yet to see an operating room that is not going to have a flash coved commercial

sheet floor and health ain't going to happen. Healthcare is huge guys is you know it's going to grow

and it's uh it's a profit center um you know and and for the institutions but but you need qualified skilled

people to put that stuff in and so if someone is considering getting trained and focused that is an area where you

could have a lot of stable employment uh if you have commercial sheet expertise yeah you will be in demand you I've said

this before on the podcast but you know when I was installing carpet was paying

out like $2.50 a yard, maybe three bucks a yard commercially, uh, back in, you

know, 99. Today, you know, it pays out to subs at

out of commercial shops around here somewhere between 350 and $4. Now, it's carpet tile, so it's a hell of a lot

easier than the stuff I was putting in for 250, big broad loom stuff. But the

point is, it it hasn't increased as much. tile has increased a little more, but I'll tell you, I got paid $6 a yard

to install commercial sheet vinyl back then. We're almost triple that.

So, commercial sheet and we're we are triple on the weld. It's damn near triple on the the coing. Uh we pay by um

uh a lot of shops around here, but we particularly pay by each segment. So the

the vinyl pays this much, then each lineal foot of cove pays this much, and each lineal foot of welding pays this

much to our subs. And our in-house guys, it's indifferent, our W2 uh employee

guys. But for our subs, you know, that has paid out that that has increased

greatly because of this demand you're talking about. And there's just so few of us. So, don't forget if you're watching this and you want to like learn

some sheet vinyl expertise, you got to get down to America's Floor Source in Octo in October 20th through 24th. And

uh Daniel, you're going to be the trainer there, aren't you? I am going to be the trainer there. Yeah. And like, you know, we talked

about nonPVC flooring earlier. It's just one of those things where installers

think that they can treat it like the sheet vinyl that they've been installing it for years, but things change.

compositions change, adhesive changes, it's all different technologies. So now

we're kind of at that turning point where we were already um in need of installers and now things

are changing to the point where a nonPVC is being installed like a lenolium or a

rubber. So it's kind of a specialty thing even more than a vinyl. So you want to get you want to get trained so

that way you're not showing up to these jobs and you know one you don't even do vinyl and now

you're doing something that's even more difficult than a vinyl would be. So just just

expand your knowledge. It's a real craft. It's one of my favorite things to install

just because it was so much in demand at the end of my install career. That's what I really wanted to learn and get

good at. Um, and so I encourage any installer who's good with your hands

that you can learn this stuff. It's not as scary. I think sheet vinyl, the commercial sheet vinyl, flash cove, heat

weld stuff has this stigma of fear around it a little bit. Um, so if but if

you are good with your h good with your hands and you understand floor prep and stuff, you're about halfway there. Get

to some courses. This one that Daniel's putting on, I guarantee is going to be a banger. So, it's worth your time and

effort and money to go go get trained. You'll make the money back very quickly if you get trained properly.

Yeah. And well, Scott, thanks for for hanging with us so uh so much longer. Uh we went over

a little bit here, so thanks for hanging in there. Uh super appreciate the conversation. And final mention for our

sponsors today, Divergent Adhesives and the NAFCT. We've mentioned them multiple

times. Great companies. NFCT is putting on this uh training in October down in

Columbus, Ohio. So, make sure you get down to that, reach out to Daniel, scan the QR code, like get in touch with us,

and we'll get you uh at that training. So, want to thank all of our audience for the comments. Sorry we didn't get to

all of them, but uh we were deep in conversation and give us a thumbs up,

check us out on on YouTube, you know, make sure to uh interact with us on our

socials and we super appreciate you guys. You're why we do it. Scott, thank you so much for joining us today and um

hope to have you on again soon. Thank you. And if you if you guys aren't getting stuff from Floor Star and you're

able to make sure you're you're getting with uh your local rep so that way you can I mean I we were at your guys'

warehouse not too long ago. It's it's crazy organized in there. I don't know how you do it.

Thank you. Awesome. All right guys, so we will catch you guys next week and

until then we'll see you. Thanks guys. Thank you. [Music]