The Huddle - Episode 163 - Adapting to New Installation Techniques and Technologies

The flooring industry is changing faster than ever—are you ready to keep up? 🚀

In this week’s episode of The Huddle, we’re joined by Robert Varden (AFT) and our Spanish host Jorge Orta to dive into the latest installation techniques and technologies shaping the future of the trade. From new materials to innovative tools and methods, this conversation is all about how flooring pros can adapt, evolve, and stay competitive in a rapidly shifting market. Whether you’re an installer, contractor, or business owner, this episode will give you insights on what’s next—and how to make sure you’re not left behind.

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What is up, guys? Welcome back to the Huddle, your weekly playbook helping you gain forward progress in your career.

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Check them out, guys. We appreciate the support and you best way you can support us is like, subscribe our stuff and go

support our sponsors. So, go check out Shack Tools. What's up, guys? What's up, brother?

Not much, Paul. How you doing? Doing good. Today's episode is adopting

new installation tools, techniques, a new one just added, terminology, and I

had to even add technology. So, we got Robert Varden with us today and uh Jorge

is joining us as well. I will be here for a short time, but uh with me as

always, Mr. Daniel and Jose Gonzalez from Preferred Floors up in Grand

Rapids, Michigan. I guess it's Preferred Flooring. Let me get that right. Let me

get my boys right. game. So, uh yeah, today we're going to be

talking about like all the different techniques. There's uh not just like the

old tried andrue stuff, but we're going to be going into some of the I should say the boys and and uh everybody's

going to go through new stuff that comes out, where to find and stay up todate with the new stuff because

um you know, if you've been in flooring for more than 10 years, you you've seen things come and go and and uh you know,

a little bit longer, you've probably seen adhesives come and go and fail and big problems. And so there's, you know,

joining this podcast, keeping up to date as well as uh some of the information the guys are going to give you will help

you be more successful in your installation. So, Robert, welcome to the

huddle again, sir. Glad to have you on. Thank you, Paul. Actually, honored to be

here, buddy. And uh for everybody, Robert may not

want me to tell you this, but he just had a knee replacement. So if he starts gigging out on us, uh, you know,

all medicated up. No, I think he skipped the medication

for our podcast. So that shows you how special we are dealing with the pain instead.

All right. Well, guys, I'm going to let you guys continue the conversation. Uh

again to our audience uh go check out Shack Tools and I'm going to let uh

Daniel and Jose and Jorge and Robert have a great conversation uh about the the industry and and uh

keeping it up to date with the new installation tools and techniques and terminology. Robert add it. So

sorry I had to leave early guys. Uh but I appreciate everybody you guys next

week. Sounds good. Have a good one. All right. to see you guys. Good seeing you, Robert. Seeing you, Jorge.

Hey, Robert. Why don't we just start off with another brief history of who you are and

and how you got to where you're at. Sure, Daniel. I'll try to make it short. Uh, you know, after 40ome years, it

could I was going to say after 100 years in in the trade, you know, again, older brother, 14 years

old, summer's mom would ship me off to him and I'd lay floors. So did that through high school, out of high school,

quick and easy gig. Uh I've had a very very blessed career. Uh he did a lot of

high-end commercial stuff. So we ended up on huge projects all over the country. Then when I went into it on my

own at 21, same thing. The seems like the retailers and the dealers that I did most of the work for large commercial

projects around the country. um most of them in Texas at that point when the oil

crunch hit us here in the 80s. The MSA Industries, I don't know if some of you

remember those folks, but they were the largest flooring contractor at one time. They had a base out of South San

Francisco. So, I went out there because things slowed up in Texas due to the oil crunch and kind of started up again out

there. But, you know, when I say bless career, I started troubleshooting for manufacturers, traveling around the

country. Next thing I know, I'm getting flown around the world, work with guys on different problems that they're

having, different techniques that again, things that we just picked up on the

job. One of the things that I think I was sought after for the most was

patterned carpets. Um, and we had in the field developed a lot of different

techniques to correct those pattern carpets. uh did some video for Dowo

Chemical, did a bunch of work for different manufacturers and so yeah I mean it was pretty cool to you know be

flown around the world and opened up schools in different places and trained people all over the world very unique so

I feel very blessed so my company AFT was founded in 88 uh when I first went

to California we always based it on four pillars which was installation education training and research of course in the

beginning it was 99% installation now as time has transitioned now It's 99% that

other pillar which is training and education. So we do training again all over the country. Uh we do have some

trainings set up toward uh beginning of next year and a few other countries. And uh yeah, it's we've been very blessed

with the success we've had since I kind of moved off and and took off onto this branch once again where I was. So it's

uh again I feel very blessed. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I see your your posts all the time. you do you guys

do a pretty good job of like, you know, showing kind of what you're doing in the

classes and and stuff like that. So, you know, we definitely appreciate that. That way people can kind of get a

glimpse of what they'd be getting into if they went to something like that. And uh you know, it's just what do you see

like lately as far as like we're talking about adapting, right? Because you always have to adapt to the new

technologies that are coming out. What do you see that's new right now that maybe wasn't here, you know, 10 years

ago? I mean, 10 years is a long time, especially in flooring terms with the technologies.

Well, you know, I can take you back 40. I know all you young kids on here, but

you know, Daniel, I think, and again, you know, when Paul had just said, you know, in my opinion, it's tools. Uh, the

other T that he didn't miss, he kind of touched on is technology. There's tools, there's techniques, there's technologies. Um, and even terminology,

you know, I think I we were briefly talking earlier, you know, where a term that I've really never liked to begin

with was, you know, self-leveling underllayments, you know, because it it it suddenly gives you this sense that

you could just mix it, pour it out, and it's going to just level itself. And and it doesn't. So, you know, thank

goodness. I know uh Scott the Anie group uh they got with Anie, they put a group together, formed the body, and actually

in January 24 was when it was first released, but it really hadn't gotten to the industry yet. But they're getting

away from that term of self-leveling underllayments. Uh because they they're now referring to them. I know the all

the acronyms in our industries, you know, instead of a, you know, SLU now, self-leveling underllayment, it's going

to be a FHCU, which is a and yeah, it took me a while to remember this one. I had to keep looking at it was flowable

hydraulic cement underllayments. Um, just getting away from that term as you know, guys, they don't level themselves.

as far as you know if I looked at a product category and this is you know when we talked about this call that I

have probably seen the most advancement in in my opinion I mean there's been some phenomenal tools I mean uh that

have come out over the years to not only sometimes help us do a better job because sometimes it's not maybe doing a

better job but being a little more efficient at doing that job because time is money but um when I look across at

everything and something that you know Paul had mentioned how do you get the word to these guys? I don't know how you

get the word. I really don't. But in my opinion, probably the most advancement I've seen is in the chemical category,

the adhesives, the you know, um, as far as any the prime, I mean, all the chem I

mean, the, you know, there's still products out guys out there now that are installing LVP with an adhesive and it

fails because they were pushing, you know, 75% RA. I mean, they don't realize that products that several manufacturers

have out are good up to 99% are. I mean, you know, they there's just products that have been developed over the years

that do things that, believe me, I didn't have 15, 20 years ago. Um, so if

when I look at the category I think that's probably made the most advancement in the last 20, 30 years, it's probably been on the chemical side

in my opinion. No, I agree. I mean, I'm Well, we were just talking about this the other day,

too. When the adhesives all switched out and, you know, they took out all those chemicals, they had to kind of rush and

then you that's when people were like, "Glue sucks now. Glue sucks now." And they've been in that same mindset even

though the technology has come so far, you know, in the what was it 25 years.

Yeah. Well, it's all specific now, too, right? Like you have manufacturers that uh have

proprietary uh let's let's just say their backing is proprietary, right? They have specific

backing recycled materials and everything's trying to get put back in. So the chemical compound of everything

having to work together is um hold on one second. Everything having to work

together is a lot more crucial now. Yeah. It's just you have to so

technology and science has to evolve with the product so that way it doesn't

fail. Yeah. Right. See, and the sad thing is guys is

none of that ever information ever gets to the actual installer. Um you know,

and again I can I we would go on for hours if I just sat here and told story after story after story because yeah,

I've been doing this a long time. But, you know, I was with working with Seam Master Industries when all of your first

it was a urethane laminate, you know, secondary, you know, which was an action back that instead of laminating it on

with an SBR latex, they laminated it on with a urethane. Well, a standard

thermoplastic, meaning on your seam intake. Don't like urethanes, but you don't know it up front because what

happens is when you first seam it up, you pull on it, it's stuck. But you go pull on it a month later, it'll peel off

like a banana peel. And then Mohawk released a product called UPS, Ultra Performance System. They stopped making

it now, but what they did is they it was it if you looked at it, it looked like a unitary, but what they did is they took

a secondary and a primary and they tufted the yarn through both of them and then did a coating process. Well, that

coating process had urethane in it. We know that because our semen tapes wouldn't stay stuck to it. Of course, a

uni a unit unary strictly glue direct product, but because this had both layers, Mohawk said it too could be

stretched in over a cushion. And so what would happen was I used to make samples

before I'd go to a show and I would seam these pieces up like a month before the show. And again, I'd go to pull them,

I'd be pulling the yarn through the backing, but by the time I got to the show, peel it off like a banana peel.

Is that something that they had in their literature as far as don't use this

seaming tape, you have to use a specialized seaming tape. They just didn't say anything about it. If you called them about what tapes,

they would tell you which ones to use. You know that that's back when Oricon was doing the Euro 10. Um AAT did the

same because it was a urethane based formulation. Seam master, that's when they did the signature series because

all of those were they called them universal adhesive formulations. So, you know, back then when they were

still using PS when I was doing training classes, if guys would, you know, ask me, "Well, what tape should I use?" You

know what? Find you a good universal tape that's got a nice melt point to it. Use it because it's good for everything.

I mean, you don't have to worry about what they're throwing at you. But uh you know again you know that's and that's

what when I look at you know as far as the industry as a whole you know we've

we've and believe me I I love the manufacturers all of them and and what they do for training and education but

for so long it's been you know we've all tried to get you know the big guys to really jump in and really support

training and education and they've done it to a point but nothing like I'd love to see and because you know the bottom

line is we're we're just out there trying to educate them on their products and how to install them correctly. But

that information, unless you really would have called the tech person, there was nothing in the installation instructions that would say, and who

reads the installation instructions anyway about using I know. Well, come on. I'm

preaching to the choir here and probably most of your listeners, too. But let's face it, 90% of us, you know, from an

installer group, they don't. Perfect example is that LVP class I was telling you earlier.

Yeah, we're we're on a project right now too where there's, you know, um a handful of different installers, right?

And they called us in to come and help. And you know, they have us kind of being

like a consultant on there. You know, what's this look like to you? How's it supposed to look? And then I got a hold

of the the manufacturer because that's who I go to to to get questions answered. Right. Right.

So, um, we got a hold of them and the guy's like, "Yeah, this we're we're talking the the different technologies

and adapting, right? And now they have nonPVC sheet vinyl coming out." And it's like,

it installs not like a sheet vinyl. You have to treat it like a rubber or lenolium. And then, you know, these guys

are having issues. It's ripping on me. It's doing this. It's doing that. And it's like, well, first of all, like you

should have contacted the manufacturers to begin with to start asking them questions, but that's besides the point.

It's let's figure this out and and keep on moving. And that's what you have to do. You have to start adapting. And now

over here on this on this job site, they're wanting them to go through and

picture frame the entire room so that way everything looks uniform,

which there's nothing in the installation instructions about this. There's nothing in the installation

instructions about how hard it is to work with or what you should be treating it like. Yeah. And that's the no notification

like you said a few moments ago uh Roberto about the um we don't know

because they don't tell us we have to find out and Paul's not here right now but he has a story that goes along those

same lines and it's just a matter of I do read the installation instructions all the time right like like out of

habit you pick it up and you're like oh this looks different. Yeah. you know, as soon as they change a color on it, as soon as they change a

label and like something stands out or the format's different, like you'll know if you read them all the time, you'll

know the difference. And the way that things are going on that Project Daniel's talking about, it's

just everybody has to take a few moments, slow down for a second, let's

absorb what's going on, what's going wrong, and sit back like

Yeah. And I agree. And and you know and that's where you know with the manufacturers they will spend millions

of dollars on tech on you know technology trying to create a new

product whether it be something that's more recycled content whatever but they

spend so much money in research and development when if they if they would

just spend a fraction of that to help educate the installation community and

and there's great sources you know you know like when Paul asked the question you So, where do we go to get this

information? I mean, not that I'm going to sit here and try to promote you to go to training, but really, even the

training entities and the trainers, as good as we all are, it's even hard for us to keep up with it all. But that's

the best recommendation I can make is to any of your listeners or anybody that's

you know trying to keep up and and you know try to not run into that issue and

that failure is seek training and education. I don't care how good you are. I mean between AFT, CFI and AFCT, I

mean there's so many phenomenal training organizations out there. It's pretty darn easy to, you know, take a class

once in a while because that's how you stay on top. That's just simple fact here. You know, no one ever

wants to slow down. And that's what you have to do when you're looking at these trainings, right? It's slowing down from your role right now

and then going in and actually getting the training on some stuff. Yeah.

um taking him at a young age too because the the more you can learn at a younger

age, the better because you know some of us are doing it when we're getting a little bit older and it you know we're

having to catch up. Well, the young age thing too is there's also um there is a history of bad habits

that become the normal. Um there's that. Um, I just had a conversation with one of our guys uh the other day about uh

the difference between uh speed and efficiency. I said, "Yeah, you could be

fast." I said, "But if we're doing apples to apples and we do a project and you do it in two days and it takes me three and I don't have to go back, who's

more efficient? Who's faster?" Right? And then we had another conversation about it um yesterday

morning at the meeting. And I'm like, he's like, they were, you know, someone was showing me how to do this and it

took them 15 minutes to cut a door in. And it's like, well, if it's good in that 15 minutes, you know, if you do it

in five, they do it in 15, but then we don't have to go back and replace it three times. Right. Right.

It's it's just stuff like that. And I mean, they said that he was showing them and they he still didn't get it right.

So, I mean, you can still make mistakes, but the fact of the matter is is it's not just doing the only thing that you

know. There's there's multiple ways to do it and it's you know taking what everyone teaches you and then figuring

out you know your own way sometimes right because I mean I've been in not

necessarily classes with you but I've seen you on stage and showing stuff and learning and then I take you know things

from you things from other people put everything together and then find my own way and then that's that'll be end up

being how I teach it and then someone will take something from me and then put everything together

and you know I think it's just the community aspect of it where you you

really never want to stop learning and everyone can teach you something a little bit different and that's why every single class that you go to is so

great because you can take one thing away and then it's beneficial just for that one thing

brother iron sharpens iron you know what I mean and that's really what it is and and you had said something I wanted to

touch base on or touch back on this uh about the big guys showing support the manufacturer showing support and they

used to right until right until the legal terms got everybody in trouble at

some point then everybody kind of said well I don't want to do that now I don't want to back that up we're still failing

we're you know they're still failing the install they need to be by themselves and there is that separation um in our

industry because the last person who touched the gallon of milk is the person who's supposed to

put it away right they're responsible and that's us Right. So, if we're the last person to touch it, nobody wants to

be involved. But, uh, you you big boys out there, you big manufacturers out there, I think you've heard it on

multiple podcasts, multiple variations, other people's podcast as well about we

need some industry backing, some industry required training, not specific to

anybody, but it needs to be required to install some other product. It creates less failure for you guys.

Long term make more money. You know, I just saw a question pop up,

you know, as far as which category needs the most training, you know, and I um

gosh, I I what I've seen that do in the last 30 years since I've been so, you

know, on the training side of this industry is I see it I see it roller

coaster. I see it, you know, evolve. You know, there for the longest time, you know, it was, well, ceramic tiles, we can't find a good ceramic tile guy,

you know, and and I mean, and then it was, you know, the resilient guy. We can't find a guy that knows how to weld, which that's still the case. I hear a

lot. Um, but one that, you know, 20 years ago you thought you would never hear is now

I'm I'm hearing I need a really good broad loom installer. you know, it's like, you

know, you've lost a lot of good installers to LVP, to carpetile, and I mean to things that and um but I think

that, you know, and I tell you guys, on the on the woven side of things, you know, here you got manufacturers that

some of those people that are making those, well, they're not making them, they're getting them out of India or

Turkey or, you know, the hand looms, the handwovens. I mean, some of those entities don't even have a technical

division. They don't have anybody to call to help to help tell you how to install those products. And I've had

more calls, I mean, I've been teaching woven for 20 plus years. I've had more

calls for that category in the last two years than I have in the last 20. Uh, we've been doing quite a bit of that.

And I think a lot of that some of the retailers I talked to are saying that well that's a category that's not being

affected like the other categories are. Meaning the day-to-day the builder business you know most of that is being

affected. The people that are buying those types of products for can tell you they've got the money to spend. They're

not going to finance it. They don't you know. So that's still a decent category that's doing well.

Well, what's happening in those categories is that the builders and the people who are hiring, the people who

are not qualified are having to go back in there and do repairs and such. And at the end of the day, they're not

going to do it right. They're going to buy another slab of stuff. They're going to hire the same person who doesn't know how to do it. And the owners of the

product are going to have to live with it till they have to buy it again years later. That's what's actually happening.

Nobody's reporting it back anymore. the problem just keeps on persisting and it's going to be a, hey, you know what,

that's what you chose to go with. You're going to have to live with it. Now, you're saying instead of, you know, the

owner calling an inspector in or something, they're just like, yeah, I'll just go ahead and fix it so that way we we just put a band another band-aid on

it basically and we'll fix it ourselves so that way nothing gets reported.

Yes. So, nothing's getting back to the people, the retailers, the wholesalers that are selling it. It's just it's

being sold. Here you go. get your installers to do it and the installers are going back and just creating another

mess. So, at the end of the day, the person who's buying it either if they have enough money to replace a $10,000

carpet, $15,000 job, go for it. If they don't, they're just going to live with it. And next time, 1015 years later,

then they're going to hopefully get the right person. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I can go into a I can go into a group of about 100 installers,

break out a flatwave, and I don't have a single one in the group that knows how to seam it up.

Well, we we got off topic there a little bit. No, you're good, man. They'll say that they know how to seam it up though,

right? Because it's they just want to treat it like they treat everything else. And I mean, we've been on that

side of things before and we've had massive failures on some lenolum where it was like you go in and you treat it

like a sheet vinyl just like the when I'm talking about the new um non-PVC stuff. You go in and you treat it like a

sheet vinyl and then No, it's that's not the the correct way. So, it's just, you

know, learning a little bit and knowing what you're working with. And I think

that's the the biggest issue is people don't seek that information. and they just figure I've already done it like

this and I'm going to continue to do it like this and it isn't until an issue pops up is

when they do like says it's like all right I we'll just take care of it so that way nothing gets reported. I don't

want this manufacturer to know that I'm using people that don't know what they're doing or something,

right? So, you know, we jumping us back a little bit to topic, you know, as I looked over

at the notes, you know, we had talked about tools, technology, all that stuff, you know, and I said, "Where do you get

it?" But then it dawned on me. I mean, tools, I mean, because I was just watching another video with Roberts on

their new stretcher and their new foot and all this unique stuff they're developing. And but uh you know you

might tell your your guys that that get on this is that the shows I mean you go to CFI convention all those tool guys

are there. You can go to TIC all those tool people are there. You know, I think so many installers thinks that that

think that those shows are more for the salespeople or the retailer and they need to understand, man, installers can

go to those shows and just see everything and eyes this

and not only that, it gives you an opportunity to get intimate with them, right? Hey, let me check out your new tools. Let me

let me try it. And then, you know, they're always looking for feedback. And that's what a lot of people don't understand is that they're like, you

know, let me know if we need to change something, dude. Hey, you guys, you uh uh distributors, manufacturers out there,

when you guys are asking installers for feedback, make sure you tell the installer who's given the bad feedback

that he's talking to the inventor of the tool. Jeez, man. Thanks for the warning, guys.

Yeah, you know, I think the toughest one, guys, would be, you know, of all the things we, you know, even

technology, you know, I mean, look at uh I I'm sure you guys have all heard of floor cloud. you know, they just changed

their name to Sea Limit Climate. I mean, that type of technology to be able to, you know, have that type

technology at your cell phone, you know, moisture. I mean, and all the things they're doing with that software now,

it's amazing. Absolutely. And if you don't know what it is, just just Google Seimer floor cloud and and

there's a quick video you can watch and uh but the technology is amazing. The I remember they gave me about a 30 minute,

you know, demo of the product and what all it would do. At the end of it, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that was like, did I

just watch an episode of the Jetsons?" It was like, it just seemed so like, wow, that you, you know, having that

type of technology at your fingertips. Yeah. And I mean, we use it all the time now. And before we used to treat

moisture testing like you need to get someone else, right? Cuz I don't want it to be a conflict of interest. And now it's like, I got nothing to hide. You're

seeing the same results I'm seeing in real time. So there there's no reason to lie about

anything. Now, um earlier you you were mentioning

um the the LVP class, the one day LVP class that you do. Uh can you kind of

talk about that because I'm I'm almost looking at the the new installation techniques and stuff like that. We got

we kind of got to go to what they're pushing out for DIY stuff, right? And

then the more that something's looked at as DIY, it's like we don't need training

for that because it's just a no-brainer. Can you kind of touch on how things

aren't like that when you're installing? Well, I I'll give you a I'll give you a perfect example, and this is kind of

what I mentioned earlier. So, one of the classes that AFT offers is a very

extensive one-day LBP class. And I mean, it's it's a crampful class. You better be ready to go. But we start out with,

you know, it's based around the majority of failures with OBP. That's what mo we try to train mostly on is, you know,

most of what that that product is has the most failures and reason wise. So, you know, we start out with floor

flatness, which is a big issue with floating floors. And we floor flatness and how to check it. We go around the

warehouse literally because, you know, I I'll sometimes ask them, "So, you think

this floor is ready to go?" And they're like, "Yeah, looks pretty smooth." And suddenly we're throwing a straight edge on it. We've got 3/8, you know, inch

variations within six feet. So, you know, floor flatness, we go through priming the floor, prepping the

floor, uh, obviously in the other order, but, uh, the first, you know, we've gone through traml points, we go through

balancing the materials, we all of that. One of the the first floor we do is a glue direct floor. And uh we actually

installed that one on a chevron because again talk about techniques. There's unique techniques that we've developed

over the years on how to very quickly, you know, take those angles, flip-flop the material back and forth, face back,

face back, put it on a chop saw and cut six boards at a same at a time at the exact same main I need to get that. I

mean, it's just different techniques we use and we show all that. We've gone through all that. We've gone through

balancing. They do two floating floors. Again, all this is in one day. the first floating floor. I kind of let them go

with it. You know, they've already covered a lot of material and it's two guys per module, 4x8 module. They go to

town on this module and they're just, you know, they're they're fooling themselves, man. They're just grabbing that stuff and knocking this 4x8 out.

While they're doing that, I'm going over either and and and manufacturers

don't don't make me do a QR Q QR code on the box to get my installation

instructions. It's hard enough to get an installer to read an insert or a print

on a box. And if he's got to break out a cell phone and pull it up on a QR code, forget about it. But I'm doing that

while they're installing. So, I'm pulling the insert out. And I call them the four numbers in my class. Okay? So,

I take the sheet, I find my four numbers. Those four numbers that I call them, I call them floor flatness,

expansion, joint, stagger, smallest, plank. Okay? Those are my four numbers. I then take the biggest fat black marker

that I have in my box, the big fat one. The guys are done and I take that marker

and oh, you know, 4 inch, you're supposed to have 8 inch joint stagger. I circle it with that big fat marker.

They're butted to the wall there with less than an eighth inch of expansion. I'm running a big fat line and the guys

are just like, you know, they got this look and then they're walking around to follow me to

every module. Guys, to this date, I've had hundreds of guys go through that class in the last three years. To this

date, I've not had one module pass. Wow. You know, and the reason I like to use

that shock and all factor is because then I have the conversation with them.

It's guys, right now retailers are getting absolute fed up. I've talked to retailers that are won't even try to

sell laminate. They're trying to steer or excuse me, ste uh sell LVP. They're trying to steer them to laminate because

of all the issues we're having now with a product that was supposed to be just so great, right? And uh and and I told

him, I said, "Guys, the problem is here's here's a problem. The floor is going to fail for whatever reason. An

independent I won't talk about independence. That could be another subject alto

together. Gets out there. He knows these numbers. He knows the product he's going

to look at prior to getting there. He's not may he may not put the black marks all over the floor like I did, but

they're going to deny the claim because you didn't follow the installation instructions even though the reason for

the failure probably had nothing whatsoever to do with whether it was joint stagger or expansion or because

another thing I do guys I do an inspection review process. I've got 1,200 and something members across the

country that I get inspection reports the photos. I was just looking at a big claim on an LVP project the other day.

It's a rigid product that they glued down. They got a permission from the guy from the manufacturer to glue it down.

It failed miserably. It was so rigid it wouldn't dip into the small dips in the floor. Now they're walking on it. It's

sounding like potato chips. I mean, you guys all know where I'm going with this. And it's like, well, who's to blame?

They asked me my opinion. I said, well, one, the manufacturer never should have told them to glue it. It was okay to glue it down. But anyway, I you got to

stop me sometimes guys cuz I'll just I think that's one of the issues too, right? Is it's always pointing the

finger at someone else like and um being on the installation side, it usually

comes down to were the last ones to be pointed at. It's always technically the last ones and the first ones, right? Cuz

it's oh it's we went through everything and now it's still your fault. It's your fault. Then they inspect it, try and get

it. Nope, it's still your fault. And it's like at some point they have to look at who's hiring the installers too

because if you're hiring these unqualified guys, you got to start taking some accountability too because

it's also as a salesperson, it's your it's your job too to kind of know what

techniques and technologies are coming out in order to have a successful

installation. Yeah, the salesperson definitely has a responsibility not only um to their

clients, but to the installer to set them up for success. Um you don't

don't have to know everything, but at least know a little something, especially if you're dabbling in new materials uh when they're coming out,

right? Like do a little bit of research, see if it's outside of the norm, depending on how long you've been a

salesperson and selling product, similar product. Uh, but

everybody's responsible as a team to to ask the questions and to find the

answers and a salesperson is part of the installation team regardless of what

they view their their full role as. But it is it's a team effort. You got to you

got to succeed together. You got to fail together, right? Like if a salesperson finds a great installer who creates

better success for them, they start getting new cl the same clients and reoccurring clients and more clients and go to this person. They're doing me

they're doing very well. And then that salesperson is like thank you installer.

You're the one helping me do this. Like what can I do to to help you more? What?

And then the installer like us, we would say if I had this information um readily

available at the start of the project or when we're talking about it, it would help me out instead of having to

scramble last minute to find everything out. Um I think that it's a team effort,

you know, guys. I mean, when you start talking techniques and and so forth, I mean, bottom line, I wish this industry

would put me out of business. By that I mean I wish that guys would

seek the training and the education they needed to where I wouldn't have to do it anymore. But that's the problem. It's

you know you have guys that you know well I I learned from so and so and he so and so learned from so and so and so

and for you know it just stairstepped down and every stair step it took there was a little less technical knowledge lost. And you know, when you start

talking techniques, all of us that have that that give a damn, okay? All of us

that are good installers, Jorge, that I'm preaching to you for here, have developed our own techniques. You know,

again, I said patterned carpet was kind of a specialty. So, a lot of manufacturers around the world called

me, sent me to huge projects all over the country, all over the world. Robert,

we've got this bow this skewed. It's got an attached, you know, urethane foam on it. can go work with these guys and get

it done. So there were certain techniques that were we developed in the field to do that to correct those issues

and of course a lot of that's what we teach in the class right now you know and and and I was I was blessed to do a

lot of training with the with the legendary Jim Walker. Okay. And Jim Walker used to have a say and he would

flat tell you. He goes, "Look, we've learned a lot of stuff in our careers and we're going to teach you this, teach you that, but trust me, if you show us

something that we haven't seen, and we like it, we will steal it." Okay?

Because that's the bottom line is, you know, I'm I'm not some master whatever.

I've just been in it a long time. I've got I'm pretty creative. So, we come up with some unique ways to do different

things. We've learned other unique things from other guys. So, we've got this all mass of knowledge that more

than anything, guys, I just want to be able to share as much. I want to empty my head as much as I can before I just

spend the rest of my time hanging out in Bise. So, Oh, yeah. But, uh, that sounds horrible. That sounds like a

horrible time. I know. I know. Yeah. And the class I went to when I went to go visit you out in Fort Worth,

I mean, that was intense. That was a lot of information uh, in just that one day. I think it was a two-day class. And I

mean, great facility, a lot of information. Uh these these uh

individuals that are taking the training are getting top-notch quality instruction for sure.

You know, any good trainer, we we don't do it for the money. There's no money in training, guys. I just straight up. Um,

but you know, I get I'd say maybe at least once a month sometimes, you know, I'll get an email and it'll have

pictures of this pattern that was this and that's the other and they're just going through what they had to do to do

it and thanking me for showing them this and that and look, it worked. I did it. It's like

to me that's man, that's more than any money could ever pay me. Right. Chad said, um, going back to what we were talking about, you know, with

the manufacturers and stuff, when he sees if he sees a material defect, it gets called out. If it's an

installation error, it also gets called out. However, you know, the manufacturer defects are exasperated by the

installation errors, then, you know, saying if it's an installation error, it's going to call out those defects a

lot more than if it was installed correctly.

All right. Scott is uh who do you want to address that? Well,

I mean, it's just the truth. I don't think there's anything to to address that. It is the truth. I mean, Scott,

you know, and I think I think that the, you know, just just talking about the

LVP category as a whole because I don't know if they truly realize what they're

doing to themselves because they they're basically making a product and this this

goes both ways, you know, whether it's the stability with a glue direct product, whether it's the fragility of a

locking system. You know, I get people that come to me and say, "Oh, you know, I don't like the drop lock system. that

don't work. Guys, I've I've tested them all. I've I've seen the test results from all of them. It comes down to, you

know, if you're installing it right, you're installing it properly, all of them perform great, so long as, you

know, again, the prep of this. But um the manufacturers are you know and again

I'm not a big fan right now of our you know I forget how many 30 plus years ago

when we decided you know somebody that we needed an unbiased third party and suddenly the independent inspector was

born. You know it it was supposed to be just that. It was supposed to be an unbiased third party that was going out

to evaluate what was going on. In my opinion and I know a lot of people are you'll probably get heat on this. In my

opinion, I feel that has evolved into that so many independent and again guys,

I lead a I read a ton of reports every month I get sent to me and it's crazy

the stuff that I'm reading. But I feel that their job now is to go out and try

to get their commissioning party off the hook. That's what they feel they're being sent out there to do because the

report I'm reading is obvious that they're just trying to get their commissioning party off the hook. Well,

most of the time, who's the commissioning party? Manufacturer. The manufacturer. So, um, exactly.

I think uh that is I think think you're right to an extent. I mean, I I I

believe that there are ethics involved in some of uh people's approach, but I also believe in

I agree. also believe that the literature that individuals are handed as an inspector are pretty specific to

the person who's hiring them instead of it being a universal uh uh packet, if you will, of literature that uses all

the right points. It's not just hitting on certain points that one side or the other needs to hit on in order to feel

protected. I think that uh you know, at the end of the day, science doesn't lie. And unfortunately,

when an installer skips a step or misses something, then you know what? Then it's

it's more heavily on the installer's shoulders than it is the manufacturer because what if you didn't miss that step? What if you didn't skip that? What

if you did it the right way? You know, and it's just his historically

I think that it's just you don't know what you don't know and that's what's causing the failures. And you know it

it's hard. It's hard. And Jose, that's and that's why I I preach to everyone and and like I said,

I'm not preaching to you to come to AFT for training. Again, I've mentioned there's so many great training entities

out there. But when you take training, not only might you get more efficient, might you get better as far as the

techniques you're going to learn, but one of the biggest things I think you do is you learn you you arm yourself

to protect yourself against something like that. And I tell them, too, I tell the installers, I never usually got the

retailers. I said, "You're you're you're not only protecting yourself, but you're protecting the retailer, by the way,

that paid for me to come in and do this training with you." Um, and it's just foolish for guys to not take the time to

be able to do that. I'll ask you if you think that um inspectors are trying to get off on a technicality like just because

both installers and inspectors, right? The the inspectors

don't understand under what circumstances the installer even if they did everything right, under what

circumstances they had to install under. And the that's the inspectors and then the installers

might not know every step, right? They they might be missing one detail on a

concrete slab in Louisiana because they're used to working on concrete slabs in Michigan. You know, there's

different things to look for. Different different regions uh call for a different set of skills and knowledge

and you don't get that without experience. Um, or if you just know have a checklist and know exactly what to

look for, the installer has a right to obtain his

own inspection. That is 100% true. Kind of says go blue.

Um, but going back to what Scott said too, you know, uh, it's hard to convince the installer the value of training. And

then Doy Doyle says, you know, he's he's right, but it's just

surrounding yourself with like-minded people and then doing stuff like that ends up pushing you to

I'll just put for us as an example, right? I'm a I'm a gadget guy. So, anytime there's a new tool, I'm trying

to get a new tool and use it. Sometimes I love them, sometimes I don't. But I I I've been through trainings where

they're using the same stuff that they've been using, you know, since the8s and yeah, it does work. But my

tools are going to work just as efficiently, if not more, because, you

know, going back to to Flash Cove and Heat Weld, it's I'm not going to have carbonation on my heat weld. So, I'm not

going to have black spots in it everywhere like you might. And yeah, that might work good for you, but when

you're trying to teach someone that doesn't know what they're doing, it's a lot more difficult than with the new

technology that's out right now.

So, no, I agree, guys. And again, I was there's a lot of unique I mean, I remember just seeing the little round

roller. I forget. I know how you guys had had posted a little bit. Uh yeah, I mean, you know, seeing stuff

like that and I'm not even really a resilient kind of guy, but I'm looking at that thinking, you mean that just now came out? Like,

isn't it weird, right? Like I know that it's it is sometimes I see tools and they come out and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, why

did it take this long for somebody to to make one of those?" That tool you could use it for a massage too on your legs. Well, it

Jose uses it for um I might have to try that rolling out some baseball mitts.

So, yeah. So, I I like to I like to reace gloves, right? Like that's my zen sometimes. I need a break and uh

do the palm adhesive in there and try to adhere the leather back to the padding in the inside. And that's what I use. I

use that because it it works really well. I put it on my hand. It works really well.

But Doyle says that we need to more training on how to qualify what a good product is so that way we can sell

quality product with quality installers for a win-win situation.

And I think that's like is it more does it go in this space or

should it not go in this space because a quality product should from the manufacturer should always be quality

when it comes out of their quality inspection. I mean things do fall through the

cracks, right? Everyone you're not going to be 100% all the time. I've seen I've seen highquality materials fail because of lowquality

installers. I've seen lowquality materials find long-term success with

high quality installers. So, I think that there's a balance there, right, of of product knowledge, uh, product

placement, and then, uh, hand skills and and techniques, and I think it all

meshes together. So, he's right though, like, and that kind of falls on the

sales team as well. Um, re not being afraid to say, "Hey, you

guys, why do you have this in this entry? We live in Michigan, right? Like we're gonna have salt, water, you're

gonna it's gonna fail. Why you guys still think that LVT works in an entryway that is right from the sidewalk

to the uh to to the entry with no protection, no awning, no I mean, I'll

go on about the wrong product in the wrong spot for days, but people don't like to listen sometimes.

Well, you know, Jose, I would add one more category to that. I've seen high quality product fail because of low

quality ingredients. Oh, you know what? That's a good one, too, because we have too. You're right. You're right.

Yeah. I mean, I've seen, you know, like you taking the, you know, we're on the subject of LVP, you know, glue direct

LVP. It seems like in the beginning they had a lot of stability issues, a lot of shrinking, a lot of curling, a lot of

various different things. Then it seemed to get better. And then of recent times

it seemed to have gotten worse. And uh and then I turn around and I see, you

know, inspectors blaming it on, you know, other items. And I'm like, "No, find some product, send it in, get it

lab tested. I guarantee you it's not stable. It's going to curl. It's going to shrink." And, you know, people will

come to me and I'll see a report and they'll say, "Oh, they they didn't use the right adhesive. They didn't use enough of the adhesive." I can tell you

I tested it even back with the carpet tiles, you know. I don't know if you you guys remember all the curling carp curling doming

carpet tiles we dealt with, you know. Well, I I was fortunate to be

I won't I won't have the I won't mention the manufacturer, but I ended up with one of their decurling machines. You

ever seen those where you have to take the you know, it runs around those binders and basically breaks down that interior backing to where it lay flat? I

mean, oh, so that wasn't a manufacturing issue. I just need to I had some people hate me there because of a job like that.

But uh you know and again you know the tech guys that I know and over the years

some phenomenal guys and and all of them will look at me and say you know I remember one time there was a product

that one of the manufacturers had out and it's been out for maybe four or five years and and he comes to me and he said

you know Robert we've changed that product at least 20 times since we released it. meaning they've changed how

they're making it, how they're cooking the ingredients in it, etc., etc. And and none of that information ever gets

around to us. And I think nor do they want it to. But what I think they don't understand is that we would love to

because we would love to work with them more on it. You know, I know you've got your tech guys. I know you've got

there's some phenomenal tech guys in Dalton and some some phenomenal people, but I think the more they would involve

the installation community as a whole to work with them. You know, in my opinion, I think you see manufacturers that want

to develop a new product, they're looking at design, they're looking at marketing, they're looking at every just

almost every aspect of how to sell and how much of that product they can sell other than can we install it,

right? Marketing and then it gets down to installation. The biggest thing because you know just waterproof. That's

all you have to say is waterproof and you already know like term that's like self-leveling under it.

It's it's a marketing term. And then that's why things are changing. And I don't know what um Doyle is

talking about about FHA carpet, but he says where are the standards for producing LVP like we had in FHA carpet

and sub FHA carpet? Maybe you can do you know what he's talking about FHA?

No, but see, and that's going to come down to, you know, there there is a, you know, resilient floor covering

association. Uh they're they're a phenomenal organization. Uh Bill, I forget Bills, he's the the one that runs

that organization. My good friend Paul and marketer, he's involved with that association. And they're a great group,

believe me. They they work closely with the manufacturing. They've got different tech teams and different things like

that. But, um I think they need to probably jump into that category a

little bit more. And again, my opinion, which don't mean anything, because I think if they don't, I think they're

going to lose ground in that category. You know, they've they've boasted for years, you know, the last several years

that, you know, hey, we're, you know, resilient is more than carpet now. Resilience's more than carpet or they're

neck to neck. You know, depending on who you talk to, which one's selling more. Um, well, that's nice nice to to boast

about, to talk about, but I think if you don't because I I talk to those retailers all the time. I see the

frustration they're having with that category and so I think if maybe whether

it's resilient floor cover association manufacturers I don't know but somebody needs to maybe address some of it or

else like I said I've talked to at least two dealers in the last year that are trying to steer them away from LVP and

put them in I mean I want to say do you not remember the issues we have with laminate or you but it's they're marketing it as the the

best thing because they're everyone is having so many issues and like

I don't know but you know it's like you know when I

put Unite together training and education and and uh and to just again get get so much

of the industry and what you guys have been doing by the way with this and I haven't said it yet has been phenomenal. I try to watch what I can or review here

and there when I can. But uh because anything I think that it's bringing more and more of the industry together

instead of working in the silos that we've all worked in for so many years. You know, that's one thing I really saw

when I was running CFI. You know, I had great relationships with all the other entities whether it's, you know, NWFA or

NTCA and all, you know, all the other acronyms in training and education. And that's one of the thing I saw that you

know all of us only have so much bandwidth meaning we only have so much be it marketing be it whatever and

obviously the goal is you know if if you if you narrow everything down from a training standpoint what is our real

goal getting butts in the seats to be trained I mean that's that's our hardest task you know we can do a lot of

different things and we can do them really well but you know the bottom line is if we are a training entity that's

what we want to do the most and getting butts in the seats so that was the whole purpose purp of me founding Unite and

paying to have it all put together and founded and nonprofit was simply to bring those training entities together

to work together to expand the bandwidth of all of them right and uh and it's it's done pretty well I

got to say and get us involved in you know build my future programs and high school programs and recruitment I mean

anything and everything to try to you know raise the bar on the installation

side right because at at at some point we all got to realize that we're all in this together and if for fighting against

each other. It's just going to, you know, tear people apart. So, just got to kind of lean in and

partner up with whoever you can because I mean, just look at I mean, on our side, it's

if I have a question for anything, you always want, you know, someone in your phone that you're going to be able to call. I've called H for for, you know,

questions on binding and stuff. And he wouldn't even bind the stuff for me. He said, "No, you

could probably find someone to do it cheaper there." called him because I couldn't find the specs on a on a referral that we got all

the way from Texas, right? And like nobody wanted to give me the exact specs. It was all over the place and and he was spot on.

Yeah. That's awesome. But one thing um yeah, you know, he does more than they just sit up there and smile.

Al Gladen does want to know when aft trainings are coming to uh Bohacker Training Center that it's Bowmont

Floring. Yeah. Well, you know, Scott and I talk about that and we do uh I think Scott's

listening as well. Scott and I talked about, you know, us plugging a class up in there and so, you know, again, this

knee thing kind of took me out for a month here, but you know, the fall is going to be busy as well. The beginning

of, you know, ne 26 is going to be crazy with all the new programs we've launched. But, no, it is something Steve

and I have both talked or Scott and I have both talked and and we are going to be setting some something up there, Al.

So, we'll see you out there, buddy. So, I know that we're getting pretty close to our our time limit here and um you

know, I just want to ask you a question for for installers out there, and it's going to be for I think it's going to be

like a compound, two different answers, right? And I mean, they'll probably apply to both, but um is there a word of

advice or any advice that you would give a seasoned installer? It doesn't matter

if they're 10 or or 30 years in. Um little word of advice to to someone who's seasoned. And then the same

question for a new installer coming into the industry.

Well, if you're me answering that question, yeah, it's going to be the same answer to both of them.

And and that comes from, you know, Jose, I again, I'm out training a lot. And in

my classes, I'll have that 30-year veteran, and I'll have this two-year and

fiveyear and 10year, and the the it would be the same answer to both. seek

training and education and and even if it's not to from a training entity, seek it amongst yourself. Google, there's

there's videos, there's things, you know, I get a lot of calls, guys. I've got, you know, I got one the other day.

He's got a, you know, I shouldn't even say this, but he's got a Axeminster double stick job coming up and he's

never installed double stick. Right away, I'm worried for the guy. And we're walking step by step. We're

talking about cushions. we're talking about it easy, but you know there again it's you know

guys are taking things on that uh especially now that times get slow they they're taking things on that they

really shouldn't be or at least maybe seek some training and education to to maybe muscle your way through it but uh

same thing though whether they're 30 years two years he called a lot of people don't do that

he did no and I trouble not before they started

I Oh, I know. Believe me, I get more post calls than I do prealls. So,

No, for sure. I think we're about wrapped up here,

guys. We've been on for an hour already, and it just goes so fast, man. Um, yeah,

man. It did. And, you know, we talked about earlier about the the resilient guys, the the

flash co and the heat weld. We do have a training coming up with the NFCT over at America's Floor Source um October 20th

through the 24th. So, make sure you guys if you get want to get some training, everyone talks

about getting some some training. Now's the time. You got to start signing up. I mean, even if you go to you were talking

about um the Resilient Floor Covering Institute, right? They got free CEUs

right on their website. There's plenty of ways that you can learn. It's just a matter of are you do you want to

Yeah. Do you want to learn? You you'll like Jason's place. That's a great place. And Sarah who training and

education. Yeah. She is. She's she's awesome. We've been there. Well, I've been there. Daniel's been there a couple times.

Oh, great. Good deal. Jeremy says he can't wait for the heat welding cove certification.

Hey, happy birthday, brother. Oh, yeah. It is Jeremy's birthday. I texted him earlier. Doya says, "Let's

jump in and uh ask some the same questions to the retailer of everything that we've

been talking about." I mean, I mean, the retailers do have to get more involved, too. And I think um you know, a lot of

the I don't want to say a lot of them, but there I've seen some salesmen going through trainings. The last time I did

the flash cove and heat weld, um, there was like four or five salespeople in there that were just like, I just want

to learn about it so I can Why is it priced the way that it is? Is the big

thing. And I was talking to some of the sales people, you know, on some of the projects. And it's like, you guys really

don't understand that if I come in here and this is flat laying base, I'm doing this in two days. If it's flash cove,

that automatically puts it at another five days and you're trying to price it like similar. So, no, there's there's

definitely a lot of options out there for everyone and you just have to, you know, look them up, start getting

involved. Give uh Absolutely. Give AFT a call and go learn on learn

how to do a bunch of stuff with uh I mean, you guys got classes for everything, don't you?

Well, basically it's mostly, you know, all carpet LBP. Um, we do some

resilient, but you know, talking with Scott and others, I think I'm gonna kind of turn that over to you guys. So, um,

so we just, you know, and and on the carpet side, it's the full gamut, you know, from high-end commercial, pattern

correction, hand, you know, hand loomed, handwovens, flat weaves, you name it.

And one thing unique I think about what we do is that we like I've got a class right now. I've got a class a two-day

class coming up uh in Boyisee Idaho. And we custom tailor the class, every class

we do. We don't just go by I mean we've got our laid out curriculums for all these different classes, but we have

Zoom calls, conversations with the owners, the project managers, what are

your weaknesses, what are you looking to gain, you know, so we we kind of custom tailor almost every single class we do.

Um and a little bit unique too is you know training again there's there's not

much money in training but one thing we saw early on is that you know our

training is is based on our cost. So if I'm flying you know a trainer in you

know you got your trainer fees your hotels your blah blah blah blah. So, we charge flat rates because it doesn't

matter whether I'm, you know, if it's a one day, it's flat rate, it's a two-day, it's a flat rate. Doesn't matter whether

I've got eight students or 12 students, my cost doesn't change. So, all of our our cost is based on the training itself

and the time it, you know, the only one that takeh changes it a little bit is if

I've got materials that I have to bring in that's not being supplied by the host, that changes it a little bit, but

most time it's a flat rate per training. But yeah, it's mostly all carpet LVP.

The trainings are out there, guys. And this is where you can actually learn about the new techniques and and stuff

and the technologies that are coming out and the tools because I I just when I

mean I travel with probably I don't know what do you say ho or like $50,000 worth

of heat welding stuff when I do these these trainings and it's it's all our tool. It's nerve-wracking.

It is. I mean like I I took him on a plane one time and it's like please don't let anything happen to him.

Oh gosh. Yes. Well, I just bad experience. You know the other other thing is again the the training partnerships we have

which they just dawned on me. I've got NWFA at the AFT training facility at

Fort Worth today. They just started a 4-day sand and finish class over there. They're actually sanding and finishing

the class they did a month and a half ago where all my modules had these beautiful floors that they installed in

them and now they're doing a sand and finish class over there this week. And and we, you know, we've got two brick

and mortar, the Witchaw and the Fort Worth. And we encourage other entities, training entities, no matter who you

are. You know, our goal is to have training and education going on in those things all the time. So whether it's a

manufacturer training, a training entity training, uh those facilities are open to any of those training entities at no

charge whatsoever. That's the thing, too. It's we're always looking for trainers everywhere. So if you if you know your stuff, it we're

we're looking for you. Like we we can't we no one has the time to go out and find everyone. You have to actually

approach us and say, "Hey, I want to be a part of this because, you know, I want to teach people everything that's in my

brain, too." and kind of get rid of that stigma that's been in our trades for the longest time to where you know I don't

want to teach anyone because you're going to take my jobs. It's not work together like yeah

you already know where I sit on all that. But yeah, like I said, we're all in this together and uh we definitely appreciate

your time, Robert. Uh if if you guys need anything, you know, I I popped that

um QR code up that takes you to to the website. So, do you guys publish everything on the website or where where

else should they go for the trainings? Website's the best place to start. Um,

we we we try to keep it as up to date as we can. Amy's Amy does that's hard, too.

But, yeah, I know Jeremy says he wants to teach people what not to do. That's about it, too.

Yeah, that's part of training. That's it. Well, like I said, appreciate

it and, you know, we we definitely appreciate your partnership and everything that you you got going on. Thanks for, you know, doing what you do

and we definitely look up to you for for everything that you've done and um we look forward to I I know I

need to get down to some of your guys' trainings at some point and we got to find the time to do that. I

I know uh you're more than welcome. I know John and believe me guys, it's been an honor to be on here with you. It's it's been

fun. brush up on your Spanish and you can come over to mine the Spanish right

everyone's told me that Jonathan's one of the best trainers but I've never had the privilege of being in one of his

classes so I'm going to have to change that sometime Jonathan yeah he's pretty good

you were in one of his classes was he at NFIC when we were maybe I

I want to bring something old up before we leave. I know you're trying to let go of remember when uh when Roberto Steve Harvey baby sister

and the winner is Nope, not that one. H Yeah. Well, you know, just just FYI,

too, because it just came up here just about three days ago. I I still have the t-shirt that has her picture on the

front of it. And I had my, you know, soon to be wife asking me why I was going to sleep with

a t-shirt with a woman on the front of it and had to go through and tell her the whole story.

Oh man, you know what? That was it was hilarious. And uh it's we could I'm glad

that we could all laugh about it now. Yeah. Yeah. Me, too. All right, gentlemen. Thanks, Robert.

Thanks, Jorge. And uh thanks everyone for joining. Make sure you're liking, subscribing, sharing our stuff. So that

way uh you know push us out there the best you can if you enjoyed it. If you didn't, still leave us a comment and

share it to everyone else to ask them if they like it. Thank you everyone. Absolutely.

All right. See you guys.