The Huddle - Episode 156 - Open Mic with CFI: What's Going On? Pt.2

This week on The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose sit down with CFI Advisory Board members Rod Von Busch, Roland Thompson, Leslie Del Pozo, and Phillip Gladden for an unfiltered, live Q&A—no time limits, no filters. We’re digging into recent leadership shifts, WFCA’s role, funding, training relevance, and the roadmap ahead for CFI. Get ready for real talk straight from the source, with audience questions shaping the conversation as it unfolds.

💡 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

The impact of WFCA’s acquisition on CFI’s autonomy and brand strength

How frequent leadership changes have shaped CFI’s strategy and stability

Insider perspectives on funding allocation, volunteer sustainability, and certification value

Plans for making CFI more inclusive, innovative, and career-focused

How members can hold leadership accountable and help chart CFI’s future

Why This Episode Matters:

At The Huddle, we believe in driving Forward Progress through honest dialogue. This episode delivers transparency on the challenges and opportunities facing Certified Flooring Installers—empowering you with the insights you need to shape the industry’s next chapter.

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I'm back.

Bring him back in. I'm back. So um you know because of those legalities

each division or organization sometimes has to operate differently. That's just

an expansion of what I said earlier. But

so it almost sounds like it's beneficial to have um or to invest into an

individual or a team that can go grant chasing to increase uh potential revenue

to do a little bit more because that is a tedious task. There

may be some grant there may there's restrictions on who can get grants and if you uh take in a certain amount of

money through a certain way that you're not allowed to apply for different grants. That's a whole rabbit hole. It

would take a whole podcast to go through to be honest with you. When you start talking about grant money, it's got so

many things that are tied to even applying for the grant. But I thought Kevin's qu next question here was a nice

one. Uh what types of things can we look forward to a convention this year? Uh what can be said to a new installer

that's never been uh to convention to entice him to go?

You know, like I said earlier when we first signed on, I've been at 29 of the last 30 and there's certainly a reason I

go every year. And for me, it's kind of like a shot in the arm. Uh, you know,

you always talk about the dog days of the summer. And people that work in the commercial field and that do education

probably really understand what I'm talking about. By the time you're done with your summer workload, you're pretty

much exhausted. Going to convention has always kind of re-energized me. It

always kind of reenters me and gets me back to to feeling good about what I'm

doing. and being around so many like-minded people and feeding off their

energy as well is something that I think is unique to our convention.

Yeah. And the convention now is also else camaraderie and the opportunity to network is a reason to go. When when I

when when I first knew about CFI and CFI convention, I was literally a an artist

in an art department doing banners and and shipping things off to a tabletop

uh trade show. Uh we used to show up at the trade uh at the convention um do

just the trade show part and then come home. we to as a company

Roberts totally was missing um the value of being able to connect

with the installers. Um Ralph Richens was really the one that opened my eyes

up to that and said, "Yeah, I I stay for the whole thing because the trade show part isn't even a little bit the

important part of it. The important part is meeting the members and and networking and understanding who who

this family is. Um I didn't really get what he was saying until I personally

went and stayed for longer than just the trade show. And that really opened my

eyes to uh what CFI was all about and and who who's behind that CFI logo, you

know, the the face and the people and the family. So um yeah and at the same

time the organization I think across the board uh needs to grow. Yeah. So you

have this volunteer family kind of atmosphere but we cannot

deny that you lose a little bit of that as you grow. And the I don't know anybody who could argue that it has to

grow. There's not there's there's not enough. You gota I'm speaking as a

flooring and company. Rod's laughing at me. We need more guys, more installers,

more more uh I people, not guys. It could be women. Well, it's certainly uh

women. And the women that I talked to love being called one of the guys sometimes. So, I I never had a problem

there. Some of them prefer it. That's right. Um, but I ain't call

the organization's going to have to grow and people, this is just my opinion, as

we grew as a as a company and as Go Carrera grew and we're going through uh

a rebrand into uh Trade Tap. Uh the the the fact is is that to grow, you lose a

little bit of what you were originally. And I'm not saying that you can't keep

the essence of what it was originally and maintain that uh installer buy

installer for installer and still grow. But you do have to realize things change with growth. That's just a that's that's

Paul's and I think that's what chatter the question kind of got at. Do you would think it that it's sustainable

long-term to have just a volunteer culture or at some point is it going to have to kind of change to where um you

you have to start paying a little bit more to some of these people in order to get the return or see the people come

out that you want. I all I can say is that I would hope

not. I would hope that our culture is sustainable and that that people will

continue to volunteer their time because it's it's really about what you get back.

I know everybody on this call right now has volunteered your time to do

something. Whether it's coach youth sports, I know at least two guys here that do that. Um or going out and help

with the training. You haven't done it for the money that you make because frankly there isn't that much money in

training. You you do it for the passion that you have for the kids or for the

people that you're trying to teach teach. And as long as that rests somewhere inside our chest, I think

we'll be able to continue to sustain it. Now, is there going to be a different

balance at some point in time? Do you maybe have to have a few more staff members to pick up as growth occurs?

Absolutely. You got to have plans for that. Well, and the the chapters kind of kind

of play with this well, too. I mean, you can grow and then keep a a real, you know, intimate kind of setting because

of chapters, too. So, kudos to 12 chapters there, Roland.

Um, yeah. And and you just get things going on with the chapters to keep that

family feel. But as far as Kevin's the value out at the convention, I think the

growth of uh having more vendors there uh that they can come in and meet and

more trainings and more educational things. So I think there's a lot that you can tell an installer who's never

went besides, hey, we're family because they don't might not quite understand that as much as we do. Uh they have to

go there at least once before they get that feeling. Uh but we have so much going on with the educational events,

the the the vendors and everything else to give them a good uh showing what they

can. You know, Ran, you just said something too that I want to uh kind of expand on or have you guys expand on.

And you said family. Um, now looking back at some of the notes and some of the questions and comments that that

we've had over um, you know, dozens of episodes, it's um, good old boys,

brotherhood, and there's been a lot of other terms that have been tossed around. Can you can you explain some of

that and and what maybe the misconception is? because I will I will

say when I went there it wasn't anything like it was explained to me and it I I

did meet a lot of phenomenal people there and I still continue to stay in contact with as many as possible um year

to year whether it's through the podcast or over the phone well I I call it I guess I said boys

just people uh I'm right now in the process of of of being gonna donate. Uh

I'm donating part of the product. The manufacturers donating part of the product and our chapter is going to

donate uh the the labor uh uh up here in Pennsylvania at a place and I'm going to

be calling my our chapter guys and like we've done so many times and we're going

to head up there. It's going to be 1,600 square feet and I know I can have I they got my back. I committed them to them

and they got my back. And so to me, that's that good old boy club. I guess

there's a good a good old the family together. They're all they're all installers somewhere else, you know,

making money, but they're willing to take that day. This will probably be a day and a half to come in representing

CFI, representing our chapter to go up and and put this flooring in. And uh so

that, you know, that's what the CFI is. when I did well when I did the shows

that you helped me on who who came to all these shows and help helped do those shows. It was CFI guys and people uh all

and I called Crystal a guy now because she helped us on some and Jen did and

they helped around the country all over the country and and Robert Irvine was

just blown. His mind was blown that people would come and help somebody from

different parts of the country. He he couldn't he couldn't believe it. So that's a good old boy club that that we

have with CSI. And you know if people are using good old boys club in a negative um you know back in the day

that's who the installers were the good old boys. Um today that's not who the

installers are and that's not what CFI reflects. If you look just at the

advisory board we've got people that have been around for several

years. We've got Hispanics, we've got young people, we've got women. Um I

think our current advisory board really represents the industry and who CFI is.

So um so I I think the good old boy

network is is um is is not

it's not an accurate description of who we are today. So, so it's not an exclusive club. It's

not a misconception. It's just who the installers used to be. A group a group of installers who got together and are

more than willing to help each other out. I was welcome with open arms. I know

that. So was I. Um, so some believe that the marketing should come from the

members uh because they live, eat, and breathe uh CFI know what is going on in

the industry. Um the the the bottom line there is that as

you got to kind of have some confluence in marketing is not even being if you're

a great installer and I'll let you guys answer this but just my thoughts is uh being a great installer doesn't mean

you're great at marketing. marketing. Uh there's companies that pay very high dollar for marketing professionals and

almost all big companies have a complete expensive marketing campaigns. Uh it's

because it's a it's a whole art within itself. Um us installers um should

really focus on being the best installers we can. That's just my two cents. Yeah. and and the re really um

Elaine I uh I think you were the one that asked that. Um I personally have

not had any super indepth discussions with Farita. Uh if we wanted to get on a

call with her to talk through some of the marketing strategies, I'm sure she would take that call. Um

yeah, I we can talk through that there. That's That's not a No, it's just a

let's do this together. Let me say this. I think Well, I don't know. I mark I market CFI every day. I

go out and do my job. I go out and represent CFI and NFIC every day that

I'm working and promote it. So, the simple thing of that I is can go a long

ways. Yeah. don't always have to be uh uh but do I I mean I think what Elena is

talking about is something Yeah, I know what she I know what she's talking about. I'm just saying we can

fly shirts and all that kind of stuff that let's talk through that. But if you're sitting there talking about um

being, you know, what it means to be certified and and you do not have the brochure or the flyer that you need, um

yeah, call somebody, ask somebody. maybe it exists. Um

she she says uh just because you have a degree in marketing doesn't mean you know how to market. And I I uh I would

say that's pretty much across the board in a lot of the the problem is is

industries. Yeah. It can be flipped too. Just because you have Photoshop doesn't mean you should be doing marketing. So

it goes both ways. Well, yeah. and and um I think that you don't

have to lose uh to marketing. So I appreciate your you know offer. I mean that's that if

nothing else that shows how the organization is kind of like oh you got a suggestion let me hear it and let's

talk to Freda. I mean so it's it's open that direction. I hope that it's kind of

clarified some of that too because I've heard Rod say before and what you just

indicated Leslie is if you want to discuss these things give one of you

three uh one of you four sorry a call and say hey could could I talk to you

about the marketing uh also you have uh there was a reply to that comment that

you they have uh you know everybody has internet and and social media and marketing

Um, if you have talent there, I think that you're uh probably free to market

yourself and your talents and and the fact that you're CFI all you want. Yeah, absolutely. Let me add one point. One

point real quick. Uh, and I wanted to respond. Jeremy had made a comment about

not really having the time to be able to take off work and get more involved and and my suggestion would be if there is a

chapter in your area, that's a good place to start. if there's not one, consider forming one. And and that's

where, you know, you said that people volunteer their time for sports, right? And that's what if he wanted to set that

up, that's what he could do is, hey, I'm not instead of dedicating my volunteer time to sports, I'm going to set up this

chapter over here and get a group of people together. Yeah. But I will tell you, chapters are also a good way to

market yourself. There's a lot of connectivity in the in the marketplace. We have our chapter meetings oftentimes

at at distributors and we'll invite retailers to come in. And no, we're not

they're not there to shop to find their next generation of installers, but that doesn't mean that connections aren't

made. We don't promote it. We don't intend for it to be that vehicle. That is supposed to be sanctum. You're not

supposed to do any recruiting at a chapter meeting. And I'm not suggesting that you should, but as an installer,

take note of who shows up at those chapter meetings. Those are the people that are interested

in supporting quality installation. If you're not with the group now that you feel that they're supporting you in the

right way, there's other options out there, right? And there's actually um we had an

an email that said um about supporting installers and stuff. So is there any

initiative to get the WFCA members to pay their certified installers more

since they are under the same CFI falls under their umbrella? Like are we

talking to the WFCA about hey if someone is certified are they getting paid? I

think one of the other questions was also uh are the retailers in the WFCA um

uh uh lever like why are it was stated that they're not but I don't know why

are they not um requiring their installers to be CFI that's a big

organization with a lot of uh retailers why are they not um you know not

requiring I don't know the relationship there or uh can't read into that question anymore, but essentially why

are the WFCA members themselves not saying, "Hey, if you were to work here, you're going to be CFI trained." Well,

let me verify that for you. WFCA membership is not taking as big

advantage of CFI as they should. I I make a joke of it, but really it

it's it's serious business to me. Every board meeting I go to, they all know

before I leave there, I'm gonna bring it up. Right, guys? How many of you have hosted a training? How many of you sent

an installer to a certification in the past year? And I get a few hands, but not near as many as you'd like to see.

And it and you I don't know what it's going to take because I don't think it's

unique to WFTA. We shouldn't be pointing the finger at them. I think it's the Well, there's an obvious reason, not to

interrupt, there's an obvious reason the fingers point at them. It's because they own the or, you know, they're the ahead

of the umbrella. So, yeah, that could be said for any But I'm just saying

that's why I think that that that it's pointed that direction. But you also have to realize that even just having

this conversation right here, right now um gives Rod the advantage of going and

saying, "Look, it's being noticed that you guys aren't taking um taking

advantage of it. So even this discussion is good." Well, here I'm going to add

something to that. I I challenge the W FCA to incentivize

retailers to use certified installers for their projects. Come up with a

program that benefits uh a retailer if they were to use certified installers.

In turn, it'll benefit the installers who are investing their time and their money into higher education, into

continuing education. Let me let me pose a question for you

guys. What I'd love to see you do is invite people from all the different

organizations, whether it be WFCA. I'm a Fuse member, so I'll throw Jeff Gordon

in there. He'll he'll appreciate the fact I'm calling him out. Um, but

USA floors, FCICA, I'm I'm naming commercial organizations. There are others on the residential side. Why

don't you guys invite them in and ask them why they're not supporting training? Seriously,

there's an issue across the board. Hear what the issues are because I've spent almost 30 years as a part of CFI trying

to figure that one out and every time I think I I find out I'm not as close as I

thought I was. Rod, are are you saying that um there there's going to have to

be a part two to this where we do bring in those people and start asking them the questions that we're asking you guys

as well? How do we get this under a collaborative? Sounds good to me. Yeah,

sounds good to me. Daniel, let's bring him in. We'll jump in with you. All right. You know, because we've been

we've been see been asking that question to the manufacturer since Jim started

it. He used to go to the manufacturer, you know, constantly and go walk in

there saying you you're you need to have support certification. So, this is not

something new. It's not something that hasn't been done. It's not something we've been haven't been working on, you

know. Uh I mean I we we agree with that that question ourselves 100%. You know,

when I get called in and I get called in to go uh fix a job or do a job start.

Why should I even been there? You guys should have been trained before so I didn't have to come in there. If you'll

give me a second, I'll go get my soap box before I get started on this next rant.

No, I I think this is we all know this is this is an industry problem. It doesn't rest with the manufacturing

community. It doesn't rest with commercial contractors or retailers. We all need to share responsibility if

we're going to ever accomplish what we set out to and that is to to create a more professional workforce.

And yeah, well, one of the associations out there that can that can participate.

I I think up until this point, it's never been brought to the attention like we are now though, right? It's always

been talked about behind closed doors and only certain groups have been there to listen in on it. And once you bring

it to the public's attention, maybe this is going to start those conversations so that way we can finally start getting

somewhere with it. But it's how are we going to do that? Like Dave said, it sounds like a live convention round

table. Yeah. Well, it's got to be multiple levels like Rod was just

saying. You got manufacturers, but you also have the uh industry associations

like your fuse and your WFCAS and your Stars and your again I'm listing mostly

commercial uh places but then from there the dealers have to participate and you

got to create almost create the demand that got faded away when subcontracting

became such a major piece of our industry back in the, you know, early

90s when that really happened. Um, and I've talked about that this situation on

this podcast multiple times, but when that happened, that is when the companies lost control of sending

installers to training because they were their employees to having to rely on

subcontractors to go get their training on their own. uh that that's a dynamic that's tough to

to uh overcome but it's going to have to the demand's going to have to come all the way through the industry not just on

one level whether it's manufacturer I mean even we talked earlier architects

uh in the commercial world being involved with uh quality assurance

portion of the specs you know recommending uh or requiring

certification of some level or some some type of validation of skill

and then the manufacturers and the dealers all the way through.

Agreed. Speaking on the subject, we need to make sure that if the WFCA is not having

their own installers be certified, then they should not be part of the executive

board. Good luck with that. Gotta love that.

Yeah. Good luck with that. Yeah. Yeah. Or hey, we we can't agree

with you more. Well, maybe uh WSCA will um we can

engage in some conversations uh with the members there. Uh it'd be awesome to

have like Fuse with six or seven Fuse members. Staret with six or seven Staret

members or 10 or 15, I don't I don't care. um and ask uh you know where where

is the pitfall? Where is the hurdle that's keeping that from happening? I

think you guys should put this on the road and just go to all these different conventions and do the show live. We we

do Hey, we we are I believe uh doing a live uh podcast at TIC this year. So I

know it was a plug. It was kind of shameless, but that's okay.

I I think it's just uh we we just it's easier to lead the conversation

when you have a platform to put it on, right? And it just so happens that we'd like to be that platform. So, I

appreciate everyone for for coming on here and and sharing everything. Um

there is a comment that we did get a few times in email as well. I'm going to look for it.

Uh this right here. So, what is being done to set up more training and

certifications? And then this kind of ties into what

Elena said earlier about I think it was Elena, it might have been Denise or someone, but kind of that where we

brought in the FCF, but we know that they're separate now because we see a lot of things happening on the beginner

side, but how are we going to pull more of the people that have been in it for a

while? to get certified when there's not those things that are scheduled.

Well, you know, it's interesting, Ran. Let me get to you in a sec. It's interesting that, you know, the federal

government tracks unemployment on two levels, the unemployed and the underemployed.

Training is a little like that. We not only don't have enough installers in in the industry, but we got too many that

are undertrained that really don't have the level of training they need. I I one

of the worst things that could happen in this industry is also maybe one of the best. LFT

luxury vinyl tile come along, right? And it became an easy application for the installers. I don't know a guy that

doesn't love installing it. They make very good money. They high volume. They can get it down fast. They're making

money doing it. That's great. But it doesn't take the average installer a lot

of experience to get to the point where they're comfortable with it. I'm not suggesting that they know everything they need to know, but they get real

comfortable very quickly on installing LBT. The problem is is as as you're moving

forward, that doesn't encourage them to grow. Well, it's the old carpetile problem.

How many broad guys do you have right now? Yeah. And then a big one that I

think is we should touch on is what about refresher courses to maintain your

CFI status instead of just paying your dues like continuing education. And it doesn't have to be hands-on all the

time, right? To maintain your membership as opposed

to dues. Well, not as opposed to dues. Like you still have to to pay your dues, right?

It's a you have to get that money. Armstrong used Go ahead. Armstrong had that up until

they shut theirs down uh that every five years you had to go on and take a pay

$50 and take a written test uh just to re, you know, to keep up with all their

new products and their new glues and their new methods and new backings. So, you had to do it once every five years.

Um, so not saying that wouldn't be a bad idea, I guess, uh, but it would be

something that had to be really looked at, right? And so just take moisture testing for instance, you have to get

certified and then after four years you have to take the written test and then after another four years you have to do

the entire course again. So, is there going to be I guess can there be

conversations of something like that rather than just pay your dues and then you're good for

life? Well, we've always had a philosophy that once CFI always CFI that we would never

pull your certification for not paying your dues or not for not keeping up. But

but I will tell you that there has been some discussions in the past to put a date on your certificate card

so that people could identify the last time you went through training. And I do think that that's something

you'll be seeing in the near future. We've had quite a bit of discussion about it. Well, and and with all of the

um updates to all the floorings and how fast uh the different types of floorings

are changing, um it it would be beneficial to do that. Um several years

ago, I don't think flooring changed as quickly um and dramatically as it is

right now. So, I think it's a a different day and age and we should look at that. Yes.

Um I think the other thing to kind of circle back around to uh the original question is one of the things we are

doing it for training and certification is we really need to educate people on

why they want to host trainings and certifications. And we've put together a

flyer um that uh people can use at uh

distributors. people can uh understand what they need to do in order to host or

to coordinate a training. Um because a lot of people don't know that they can set one up themselves. Uh they don't

know how to start to do that. So, we put together a flyer that we can make available to anyone that needs it that

kind of just gives a basic of how much space you need, uh how much time do you need, how to coordinate the date, who to

call if you have questions. Uh we just completed that a couple weeks ago and we

can get that out to anybody that's interested. But the um really we just need to educate people on why they

should host a training or why they should um get their local distributor

involved as well.

Yeah, I think um that may be one of the drawbacks uh to

CFI is but we like we said we're running on volunteer status, right? But

sometimes it's easier to just have things set up and you show up than it is

to like even if you're you're the instructor, right? But there's a little

bit more work there. But how can we get things to that way? They're just set up

and you don't have to really necessarily worry about something like that. Um,

someone says here, I can't find it now, but that's kind of

what what they were saying was, you know, like the person that's putting on the certification, do they have to pay

for everything or is that something that CFI provides as far as the materials for the boxes and everything?

No. Once we put on, we provide everything that you need.

Well, I take it at the expand on that. They take care of we

take care of all the tools, the boxes, all that stuff. We ask for the space and

then we ask for if they would host lunch. Uh you know, no, they they don't

then usually the guys go out and the people go out and eat on their own. Uh but we don't supply the lunches. Uh

usually the the host does that. So there's going to be a cost to the to

the person who's hosting it some, right? And that that should be and that's why

you got to have these, you know, talk to the retailers, talk to the distributors to try and get these costs offset,

right? The retailers need these guys. The distributors want to help out any

way they can. So why not just reach out and see what can be sponsored?

Well, and and and there again, when it comes to material, I know the last three

that I've done, uh when John, uh talked to them and

Jen's setting it up, they talked to him about the material, and each one said, "Well, let me take care of that." And

they called the manufacturer and said, "Hey, I'm hosting a training. I need this material." And the manufacturer

shipped it into them. Uh, I've had ones that said, "Hey, I stock items and you have this kind of this much of stock.

I'll let you use." So, if we can utilize that, we're going to do that. I mean, without hesitation. But if they can't,

we're still not going to not do it. CFI is going to get it shipped in. Okay. And then

is there any like going back to it'd be easier if this was set up for us. Is there anyone in the office whose job is

setting up scheduling and events and trainings or is that just um based on

No. Okay. Another question that came across and

this has come across a couple of times. Yeah. Dan really wants this question answer. NFIC

uh is why isn't it incorporated with the other acquisitions uh or not being

advertised? Is the NFIC just absorbed in the CFI training? Um it was it was

talked about earlier uh one of the previous comments was that the NFIC

didn't have a logo change uh or did was not part of that. Yes, they did. They

did. I think that was a yeah dis misconception maybe. Um but

is it in so it is incorporated with the other acquisitions? It got a logo change. It got a refresher. Uh is that

correct? It it did get a refresher but it is not being absorbed into CFI. It is

a standalone entity with within WFCA and and uh

yeah it's it's separate. I see is NFIC and it'll be continued to be known as

NFIC. Is that correct? It will be. It's being administered by CFI, meaning we're

we're handling the clerical portion of it, but NFIC has its own committee

and uh they're setting up their own trainings.

Um, so Allan says that uh we need to have things in the flyer who supplies what for each training or cert so that

way people know how to sell the training when they're when they're going to to places.

Allen, that that flyer already exists. Yeah, I it's already in why you haven't

seen it, but please reach out to us later and we'll get it to you. All right. So, I do want to go ahead, Paul.

No, I was going to say go ahead. tell us a little bit about what Allan's asking and um what the flyer is. Well, there's

actually several flyers. The one that Lesie was just referring to is a quick

step-by-step instruction on how to literally from the point of conception.

Hey, I want to have a training. How do I go about doing that? There is a uh

perception out there that is harder than it really is. And I think that's just simply because not having done it, it

looks monumental and it really isn't that big a deal. So one of the things to try and lessen the load and to try and

make it a little bit easier is we establish a mentoring program within

that step. So when you reach out and say, "Hey," you contact the national office, you talk to John or Jane, and

you say, "I want to host an event. I'm considering hosting an event." They and then in turn will contact one of us that

on the mentoring committee saying reach out and talk to Sally down here in

Chattanooga who wants to have an event and then we'll help guide them through that process.

Now in terms of the other flyer that Allan was referring to is I think Rand

had described earlier is that we actually lay out here are the things that you must have. This is how much

space you need to be able to host a training in your facility. Here's how

much electricity you need to have available. That is all laid out step by step.

Gotcha. Okay. How much longer is it going to be before uh training and

certifications go digital uh utilizing AI platforms? Um, essentially everything

is in person but via uh a live stream of

some sort. Well, obviously the hands-on is always going to have to be done live. Have we

toyed with and talked about a digital format for the education side where

people could sign on and and do some of the preliminary work? Yeah, we have we

we've talked quite a bit about it. In fact, um, creating a digital platform,

as I'm sure Paul could tell us all, is not cheap. It's a pretty sizable venture. And so,

um, it's something that we've talked about, but we haven't budgeted for yet. We're still age where we're trying to

figure out how to make that fit and to make there's definitely been some

discussions around how uh you know to leverage technology to lighten the load

on on the training and focus on the part that still has to be physical which is

the hand skills. So um

it looks who is setting up the NFIC trainings. Is that the same process as

you described earlier? Yeah, it is. And we've had answers real

quick telling them to set one up. Anybody can set up, you know, a

training. I mean, it's open. You just there again. Then you do what Rod said,

call the headquarters. They can call one of us mentors and that includes NFIC. So

just I think that was a specific question to that one. Yeah, that that No, that includes NFIC. So let's say

Paul, you wanted to put an NFC up your area. All right. Uh

you start getting it lined up, you make a call to headquarters. Uh John or Jen

will then get all your information and then they'll pass it on to one one of the mentors. Uh, and you know, pass it

on to Kevin Keith. Uh, he's one on the on the board, pass it to Rod, pass it to

me, and know we'll start working with you, getting it lined up. So, it's not anybody wants to can set up a training

and that goes with NFIC and CFI. I think today's um in today's world having some

of these things uh capable digitally are going to you know and I know that CFI is

looking at some of that stuff uh could be a big a a huge help because uh people

are used to signing up for things online and doing those types of deals online and the more you can uh uh create that

scenario uh in today's world the better um the better you are. So

So now now I want to kind of go because we've gotten quite a few questions about

convention, right? So CFI convention is seen as

valuable but also expensive. What's being done to make it more accessible to

working installers? Well, first off, we've moved it. It's um

not going to be in Orlando this year. It's going to be in Nashville more

central to where people but also the price went up.

Well, travel hopefully gone down. Um how much did I You know what? And I

apologize. I don't even know how much it went up. Let me look that up. I think it went up $100 or something. It went $100.

Yeah. I don't know. So the

obviously the the the convention has been a a good tool for getting people

acclimated with CFI. Many people even on this uh panel uh stated that you know

they went to a convention and that was the the the clicker. So, um, are there

ways or, um, you know, I think that the the again the

essence of that question is like it's expensive and I'm taking off work to go to see to the convention. How how what

is CFI doing to kind of make John says it only went up 30, so

my apologies. Well, I mean, so this is kind of a

double-edged sword, right? As CFI as we are scheduling things for CFI, we want

to make sure that there's speakers that people want to hear from. We want to

make sure that the programs are something that um are educational. Uh we

need to make sure that people taking off work and traveling

here are going to get something that is worth their money. um we can cut a lot of costs but then

what are the installers really getting from it if right because that's one of the questions too is classes aren't

there one of the questions is what's the ROI for someone attending convention right what what are we talking about

here and you kind of touched on that as far as the education aspect and I can attest to that because I've been to a

few of them and yeah it's you're going from class to class learning ing all day

and it doesn't sound but when you're when you're a floor nerd that's what you want to do. Yes.

I will tell you that you know the biggest impact to the cost of

convention this is probably what most people it's a cost

food everything everything's went up uh so I

think don't know how hard that team worked to try and keep the cost down this year and that's the best they could

really do was just a modest increase because food expenses went up 30% in the

last 12 months Well, if you looked at that in terms of what we paid last year at Rosen Shingle

Creek and and by the way, I love that facility. I just don't want to go there

every year. Yeah. But, uh, I mean, just look at the price of eggs. Like, not

even just conventions, just you going to the grocery store to buy eggs, everything went up. So when we were

looking we're looking for a location we were very conscious of the fact that we had to look at it in terms of where can

we be more centralized to the membership because driving in is substantially

cheaper than flying in. Right. So Scott brings up a point right here where he says, "Is there any way that if you

attend convention, your dues are covered for the year rather than having to pay

dues and then still pay everything for convention?" Well, the reality of it is you could

blend the rate. You're probably still going to end up paying the same amount of money. Guys, I'm not going to

Could we increase the cost of convention by $100 and offer you your dues to be

paid? Sure, anything's possible, but the bottom line is that the dollar amount

would work out to be much the same. Now, I'm speaking for myself, not for the organization in this moment. I we've

never really investigated that and with joint convention with FCEF, it would be

a little bit more complicated because of the way the dollars get divied up at the end of end of the whole process. But

could it be done? we can look at well a version of that uh is done in other

organizations which is you bring in three CFI members uh new members and

your dues are paid for the year or so this type of thing. So getting more involved and I don't know where that

lands with um with you know

if that is possible but you're bringing value and therefore you earn the you

know many companies do that right you you you bring in two or three whatever the

number new members and that pays for your convention

something like that and some incentive he says that would benefit both sides. And we've thought about doing something

similar with, you know, can we offer a a bigger discount to members that are taking the next level of classes to to

incentivize them to Yeah. All that is is being looked at and studied and we uh I

wish we could get to some of this stuff sooner and reach conclusion on some of it quicker, but it really takes time to

kind of map through things.

for sure. Um there's Nate says that he was having issues

registering like paying dues and registering for convention have been problematic. Is is all of that behind

now? Have you guys heard of any issues that are coming up with people not able to or having issues with registering? We

had a very big problem. That's the to say the least. We had a very big problem. We switch computer

systems. And anybody that's ever gone through that nightmare where you try and integrate an old system with a new one

can can probably speak to just how complicated that becomes. What ended up happening is we lost some of the

membership signin information. So when we converted to the new program,

members couldn't sign in. That would for for quite a period of time that was unbeknownst to us. We didn't understand

that that process was going on. So, yes, that has been taken care of. Um, anybody

that's having problems. All they need to do is call into the office. We can set him up with the new

sign in information and they're on and they're done. It It's pretty quick and easy, but they will probably if they

can't sign on now, and we recaptured some of this, but if they still can't sign on, then just call into the office.

We'll get you set up. There's some chatter. Uh there's two or

three different um comments about United Front and other locations of

training. Does anybody can the can other organizations set up

trainings with CFI? That seems to be the question. If I add

them all together, anybody can set up a certification or a

training with CFI. I Okay. Yeah. Well, I don't know if that

was really the question, Paul. I'm trying to figure out what the intent was there. Well, the I can read the question

directly because it came up. Uh h

does anybody even uh another training there's a I have a phenomenal training

facility in Fort Worth, Texas. This is Robert Varden. Does anybody even another

organization I would love to host a CFI event. That by itself mixed with uh

people stating great facility from what I can see and yes a united front on the

training and education. So those are comments and questions. Is there um

that's a odd question. Let me let me clear the air for a second. That's an odd question because it's another

training entity essentially asking to or offering their facility to do a training

of a CFI. I think that would be um my opinion quite odd.

Um although maybe having a little bit of uh unity for installers uh I think that

that training entity can use the facility uh to to do their trainings. Um

so I am reading the questions. These aren't mine just to be clear. I'm trying

to clarify as best as I can what the multiple uh responses to that are. And

uh that is not as like and in the same

place at the same time in the same room talking about the products that do the same things. Um you know I I think that

there's a line and a level of partnership that can be formed and understanding that can be formed across

separate training entities because it's everyone has the same mission uh at to

some aspect and that's to spread the word to increase awareness and education

and to some extent there has to be a line drawn I know but there's also got to be a level of acceptance saying we're

both trying to better the industry. So, I I'm going to jump in and and it is

kind of an odd question because I don't I don't think that Pepsi would ask

CocaCola to come over and train in their facility. So, I mean, that's what we're

talking about. And aft is a great training organization and there's

several people that that support both uh CFI and AFT, right? Um so it is a

little bit weird because it's competition. Now having said that, competition isn't a bad thing, it's a

good thing. Um, you look at Roberts and Crane and Gunlock, we're all doing more

and doing better because there is competition. And because of that competition, the installer is the one

that's winning because we're coming out with better tools. Um, I

I Well, I think that's that's a good point. You always have to have competition. And the bottom line is that

there's there can be some camaraderie without necessarily

uh you know like your Pepsi Coca-Cola um uh example, but I also uh to be devil's

advocate a little bit don't don't want to have I think people don't want to

have uh this type of industry or training of installers be quite as as

like cutthroat as corporate America. So you take corporate America, Coca-Cola

and Pepsi. Is there a way to like um not

have that type of thing, but still understand they train their way, you train your way. There are two different

trainings and you both have your own unique way of doing that. And so for it,

it may be odd. it. Although the question was uh I think a little bit hard to

answer uh at the end of the day it's uh also important that like you don't no

one's at it doesn't seem to me and it hasn't came up until now that there's any ill will going on. It's just

probably not going to train our training at your training facility

where you train your trainings. we both have our facilities and we can cross uh

you can have installers that take both and value there's value in that but um

that's my two cents of it. It's it's a difficult uh uh question to approach.

Actually, Paul, I'd like to put in put in my two cents here for a second.

Just in the last two months, I I was one of one was here. I was putting on a LVP

laminate certification. I had there was one we had the full house on and there was a gentleman here from from a dealer

and he came up to me and said ah he says in two weeks I'm going to be going up to

New Hampshire uh uh aft is uh doing a two-day um

the inspection inspection class and me and my owner are going up and I said

great go up you're going to learn a lot of stuff. That's what we need to do in this

industry. All right. I had a guy call me from from out west and said, "I'd really

like to come out to your training." He said, "I just can't afford it and I can't take that long to travel and I

can't afford the airfare." He says, "But they're having one in Witchtow." I said, "Go to it." I mean that's what we need

to be you know is is you you know

good you know training is training you know and like um I don't know who said

it earlier might have been Philillip you know I went I went up to Pittsburgh and

went through uh a training up there you know I mean there's there's nothing

wrong like Leslie said with good competition are good, you know, uh things. It makes us better. You know, uh

in my town, I have a store down the street, one of the biggest in town, been around for years. I tell people if they

come in here, they well, we've been up to Petersons. I said, "Good." You know, I I'm going to show you what I can do

and I'm going to make my value what I can do to be hopefully you'll buy from

me. But if you bought from Petersons, they're a good company. I know the owner. a real good person, you know, and

you don't lose sleep. You just you build each other up, right? So, the bottom

line is Robert did say sorry, he didn't mean to throw a wrench in there. He loves CFI and don't see see them as a

competitor when uh there's been multiple comments that like like this one saying that the only competition is the

untrained installers. And when you look at it that way, that's exactly what it is. So, it's not throwing a wrench in

the call or anything. I mean, that's what we were here for was for these types of questions and getting the

answers. And now that's what we have, right? It's it's a separate thing. It's not saying that, hey, don't go over

there and do that. It's just I'm not going to be in go into your building and

teach my class when we have our building that they can come to. Yeah. I think that, you know, the bottom

bottom line is that there's plenty of of guys that are out guys and gals that are

out there stating that they have um you know that they're installers and never

have received any industry training whatsoever. That is who our uh biggest

uh that that's the biggest audience we have as uh uh co-joined people in the industry

wanting to improve the our industry in a big way is those guys th those guys and

gals have got to um you know we don't have licensing. We don't have these restrictions like plumbers or

electricians that somebody you go to their house to uh measure up and they're

like well I want to see that you're licensed and insured. You know they may ask for insurance but there's no

licensing in probably 99% of the US. So due to that you you you fall back to it

certification and training with these uh new people is imperative. Um, we've

talked at length in this podcast about how do you reach them, how do you get them? And I think some good ideas came

from it, about how to reach out to the retailer, continue to reaching the

manufacturer. One thing's for sure, you know, having a a a

lot of people requesting the same thing will get more than one person asking that same thing. So the more we're vocal

to the manufacturers and to the fuses and and and um uh alliances of the

world, uh maybe maybe there's some meaningful change that can happen there uh from those conversations that this,

you know, could start. Well, I think that is the challenge and I think we all identify very well with the fact that

that mentality you were speaking to where people just don't see the value in

training. I I've told people for years, and I firmly believe this, you know,

you're a commercial installer. Give me 15 minutes. I can show you how to make more money. I really believe I really

believe I can, and I've done it over and over again. So, I I'm pretty confident in that. That's where training pays for

itself. But you you got to you got to have

and be able to afford to take the time off and go make the commitment and do all the things that are necessary to

make that happen for yourself. And for some, it's too big a hurdle.

It's too big. Well, it's an investment. You got to look at it as an investment in time. A lot of people invest their

time like was talked about earlier with kids sports and or eight sports team or

doing other things. It's really a value uh thing. Where do you value your your

professionalism and your ability to be expert at your job or at your service?

Um that is really the the the whole piece. You if you value it enough, you

will make time for it. uh the industry at large. The problem is there's still there's never been a way and and to

really stamp that somebody is what are what are their skills and abilities and

homeowners desire it. Uh we did a I heard there was a program being developed to do that. Are you sure there

isn't a way? There is. Thank you, Rod. Uh but everybody knows about Go Carrera

and are soon to uh be a transition into trade tab where these things are are

addressed. But that's the only chance uh

you know we really I think that you know getting the new installers in I'm just

going to do a quick recap. We've we're running on two hours and 20 minutes, but the difference between the entities in

the uh in the under the WFCA umbrella

allows for new people to come in through the WFC or through the uh

hopefully get trained by CFI and start to mature in their years of experience

and their their knowledge through those trainings. So, they should be very cohesive. Thus the cohesive branding

that's required and none of us um are

uh I I think we all have to take a step back sometimes and not be so critical and really look at what where can I add

value and where can I help to make it better as opposed to where where can I find fault and dig it down. That's just

an overall statement uh based on all the questions, all the comments and such

that where can we where can we participate to build up the industry as a whole and and not always look at the

things that we may see somebody do wrong and tear it down. It's a terrible way to

parent. You know, if you just look at your child and you only pick the bad things and you never tell them good job

at that that last at that son or whatever it is, uh that's a terrible way

to parent and it's a terrible way to look at an organization that you're trying to grow and make uh and make a

meaningful change in an industry. Like let's band together. That type of unity is more important than anything. band

together and uh let's find the positive in this whole in all these things and try to try to really build up this

industry together, right? Go forward moving forward too. So Nate says

business skills need to be added to certification since we continue to lose installers to the tax man and I and you

know we're we're about two two and a half hours deep. So, I kind of want to lead into some of these questions that

we did get and it this kind of like a

what does success look like for CFI over the next three to five years and is

there a clear roadmap to get there? That's a great question. I will tell you

that every year we sit down and review the goals for the upcoming year as well as plan a strategy for the upcoming

three. We don't usually extend out five years though. Certainly I know some

organizations that do. I for So what if I reframed it? What is the number one

objective for CFI this year? And then what does it look like for the

next three? Is that better than the three to five? And and yeah, but I'm

going to I'm going to tell you that that for me it's it's a consistent approach.

Okay. What does that mean? that that means that once we establish our goals, we stay true to them, which means that

you you don't waver you don't waver under the criticism of others that that

may not be well informed. You you stay the path, you keep moving forward. So,

what I'm looking for and I and I think we're on the right path is strong leadership from the group that's sitting

in front of you. I think if we possess that and deliver on that level, then the

rest of what you're talking about is going to be pretty easy to achieve. Now, if you want a more direct answer, what's

the most important thing to me? Most important thing to me is is to try and create more value for the membership. It

has been for for a number of years. It's been the the one thing I keep promoting over and over again. If you ask Paul

when he's attended on a regular basis, when he's attended, how many times he's heard me preach about value and how

important I think it is to deliver value to the membership because guys, this organization,

we used to say you have to contribute to get something back. I still believe that is somewhat true. But the bottom line is

is you got to encourage contribution. You got to show them the value in the contribution. And so that for me is the

number one goal. So from an objective standpoint and um

like actual tangible things, we talked about, you know, trying to make things a

little bit easier uh to sign up, better marketing around how to start um

a training or host a training. Like some of these things, people just don't know.

The the effort has to be put in for people to understand how they can host

their own training at their uh location or find a location and do that. The uh

the the there's a lot of positive things that you guys have talked about in here

that answer the question Daniel read off and Daniel stated, you know, that wasn't

his question. He can't take credit for it. Uh it's a question from the audience wanting to that was emailed in that

wants to know like what are the what are the actual objectives and like how is

CFI going to move the ball forward in the industry and you mentioned some of those uh with

the chap everything the chapters are one um and I'm just recapping so I'm not

answering this question I'm just recapping this two hours that we've talked about that answers the question.

Chapters are one that are an objective that that Rollins obviously gotten up to

12. Clarifying how to um um start and host a

a training is another. These are the things that came out through this. And if you want

to add any more, I just was recapping things you have said that answered that question already. or some yeah really it

comes down to you know the the value ad for membership is always part of our

conversation whether it's the executive board meeting or the entire advisory

board. Uh we're always talking about adding value and we're always talking about how to make it easier to set up

trainings. So those are two of our big initiatives. Um and and we've done quite

a bit uh of uh the flyers and and the the brochures

trying to get information out to the members to make it easier for them. And

uh if we have not done a good enough job getting that information out um to you guys, then we will make sure that that

is broadcast out so everybody has it. We've worked hard on those those things.

Another thing is just to be clear is that annually there's an objective of

putting on a worldclass convention. So that's that's a big thing to to pick up.

Um just uh throwing that out there that it is it's not easy. Part of the answer

to that is like every year putting on a worldass convention is a a big lift.

There's a lot to do to make that happen. So that's another objective that you guys um you know that came out through

this is it's every year you got to do it. That's awesome. So well I I think I

I think uh one of our other goals well not say other goals added to the goals

is to give uh top-notch first class uh

trainings and certifications. So, keeping keeping our uh up to date with

the me with the new products and the new methods out there and having the trainers uh train to train it uh

properly. Uh that's always on on you know at the top of our list to make sure that we are the the leader in this. Um

and we're going to stay working to be the leader in this. Um so the having uh

you know you say about the chapters but our goal is is that each chapter area

will be set up to be able to be self-contained uh to hold the certifications and

trainings uh to make it easier for the installers but there again is a value for the the installers that they don't

have to travel as far and go as far. So that's stuff we're looking at is how can we make uh uh more areas uh accessible

for trainings because there's there's I hear all the time well when are you going to come to my area when you going

to come to my area and through chapters and local local uh we'll be able to do

it better. So those are more goals that we have in line to do.

So, I think uh to kind of close this out, it's that two and a half hours now. Like for those that want to get more

involved in helping CFI, how do they get started? What are the

the first steps that they need to do in order to start?

I mean, my reach out, ask somebody. That's all it takes. I'm talking about

reach out to the advisory board, call the office. So you got to say it like like you're

talking to someone who does not know anyone or anything. So the advisory board has a lot of Hang on. The advisory

board has a lot of different committees. There's a marketing committee, a training committee, um, uh, membership

committee. There's like five committees. I'm sorry I'm not coming up with them off the top of my head. We would love to

have more volunteers to help with every single one of those committees. Um, so

depending on what your passion is, uh, reach out to any one of us or

I don't I think everybody knows how to get a hold of at least one of us or anybody on the advisory board and well

call CFI direct in terms of Facebook groups. go on

flooring and rod give them give them Rod there is a direct we set up a uh direct

mailbox for just the advisory board. Okay. So if you want to send us an email, you can send it to the advisory

board cfinstallers.com. Uh tell us who you are, tell us what

your interest is. Um one of us will get on the phone, we'll we'll talk through what you what you'd like to be involved

in and see if we can't find you a home. So that's if that's if you are uh

looking to talk to the advisory board. Uh you know it might be good if uh you

guys post this on your social sites on like how to get a hold of us but a brand new person that is not you know like

they're just coming they maybe got on this podcast and watched some conversation and they they've never been

trained. Right. First step, call the home office,

right? Call the home office. Say, "Hey, I want to get certified and I'm in Tuscaloosa, whatever." Um, that's a

that's a good way to get started, is it? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. If we if we know there's somebody out there that's interested in training, we'll work with you to find a spot.

Okay. Yeah. It's them finding you is what I think Daniel was kind of asking.

It could have been taken as a two-part question for people who are already in the industry and kind of know CFI, but

also people brand new uh to the industry or they've been in the industry for a

long time and they never heard of CFI. So in that case get how does how does

that happen and how does somebody who does know CFI but has a an idea or

something then that would be reaching out to the advisory board and could you mention that uh email address one more

time. Yeah it's advisory board atcfinstaller.com.

Okay. Um I will I will speak to this as well is uh

maybe not one of the priorities but certainly it contributes to our goals is we are trying to enrich some of our

relationships with the distributors. Now how does that play into what Paul was just talking about? Um I'll give you an

example. why we're having the convention in Nashville. Every flooring distributor

in the area will have a banner announcing we're in town that we're putting on this. More of that type of

marketing is is going to be coming your way in the near future. We had a strong

network of distributors. Some of that we lost because of all the consolidation in

the industry. In some regards, we actually enhanced because a group like All Surfaces

gobbled up a lot of smaller entities that we didn't have relationship with. So, there's a there's a whole lot of

stuff going on in this industry that that the average guy probably doesn't witness, but it's out there. It's going

on. And some of that will be to your benefit, and some of it you kind of need to be aware of because you may have to

figure out how you're going to approach it in terms of business later on. Yeah.

Well, I'm gonna start to close this out. Uh, I wanted to just go for another two hours.

Keep on going. I got be a record for the longest ever show. I've got like 20 more

questions if you want me to keep on going. My wife might not agree with you.

I want to thank everybody for participating and you guys for coming on, answering the questions, being

willing to be dug into a little bit and, you know, giving people a chance to

really hear it from you from CFI on what's going on. I want to thank all the

uh audience for all the participation. We didn't get to even all of the questions. It it just kind of came at in

droves there uh off and on. So, we tried to consolidate some of those. Please

jump on, you know, wherever you're consuming this. Uh, give us some some love, give us thumbs up, let us know,

uh, what you want on topics coming up. Uh, give us a, uh, like and subscribe on

our YouTube channel. We're lacking there and could use your help. So, if you watch us on YouTube later, uh, and you

make it to the 2 hour and 35 minute mark on that, you might have to cut this one up, man.

then please like and subscribe it because uh you deserve it and so do we after two hours and 35 minutes. So again

thank you everybody. Um I want to give a brief moment to each person to kind of

give a closing statement. Let's start with you Rod. You're right next to you're the next one over.

Well I'll I'll say this. I think what makes CFI unique is our culture. It's the involvement, the volunteerism. It is

it's having all these people that share their passion on a regular basis.

Absolutely. How about you, Lesley? Um I just want to thank everybody for um you

know, as as much as there's seems like there's a lot of negativity out there.

Honestly, it's just passion. And I appreciate passion. Um, I think we have

one of the most passionate memberships around and um, you you got to applaud

it. It's who we are and and uh, if if we didn't love it so much, we wouldn't fight so hard for it.

Bella, uh, I just want to end by saying we are CFI. If you want trainings, if you want

things going on in your area, make it happen. CFI is the members. Anybody can

do it. Let's keep moving forward. Awesome. Ran, save me for last again,

huh? All right. First of all, I want to thank everybody that came on and asked questions, you know, uh it was scary. Uh

thinking, okay, what's going to happen here? But, uh the idea that we could

come in and try to answer some of them for you. I know we we didn't get them all answered. Uh but uh we're reachable.

Uh most people know how to get PM us or get us or go on the uh go and email the

advisory board. Uh but we just want to move forward and and make things best

for the installers. Uh that's what we are. Thank you for the time,

Daniel. Absolutely. I think that one of the the best things that you can do is get to convention and see everyone.

um you a lot of these people like we talked about good old boys club and that it's a it's a it's closed off but I mean

you guys welcomed us with open arms just in these past few years. So I I definitely appreciate everything that

you guys do and and keep on doing for the industry and it wouldn't be the same without you. So everyone that that

joined us today, thank you so much. You know it's all about your mother, right?

She she'll put anyone in in their place. That's right, Jose.

Um, she'll also just run you over with the amigo, too. She don't care. Um, so I

I appreciate you guys and everyone joining us and trying to shed some light on some of the difficult questions that

that might have come up early on and and throughout this whole uh episode. But uh

I'm going to leave with more curiosity. I think uh we should get some uh board

members from the WFCA on here to answer some of those harder questions and to give um a little bit of guidance and

maybe insight as to why um progression doesn't happen faster and why it's so

hard for certain divisions of the WFCA to find locate additional finances to

help push forward. um and why we can't come together with manufacturers and

distributors to make it more beneficial for installers and to make it more obvious to installers the benefit of

being trained and certified. Well said. I'm going to leave with I

think that this was a really um awesome podcast. I enjoyed every minute of it

and I I just see a lot of love coming in at the end and so regardless kind of

hearkening back to what you said Leslie, you know, it it it can be passion. Um

but people love CFI so keep doing the great work you guys do, keep driving it forward. I hope it didn't I hope this uh

uh builds a fire in people to get involved and continues to uh stoke your

guys's fire for um you know building CFI and driving it forward. So thank you

everybody for joining us. Thank you to the audience and we will catch you guys next uh next week. Thank you. Thank you

Paul and Daniel for the time. Thank you.