The Huddle - Episode 156 - Open Mic with CFI: What's Going On? Pt.1

This week on The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose sit down with CFI Advisory Board members Rod Von Busch, Roland Thompson, Leslie Del Pozo, and Phillip Gladden for an unfiltered, live Q&A—no time limits, no filters. We’re digging into recent leadership shifts, WFCA’s role, funding, training relevance, and the roadmap ahead for CFI. Get ready for real talk straight from the source, with audience questions shaping the conversation as it unfolds.

💡 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

The impact of WFCA’s acquisition on CFI’s autonomy and brand strength

How frequent leadership changes have shaped CFI’s strategy and stability

Insider perspectives on funding allocation, volunteer sustainability, and certification value

Plans for making CFI more inclusive, innovative, and career-focused

How members can hold leadership accountable and help chart CFI’s future

Why This Episode Matters:

At The Huddle, we believe in driving Forward Progress through honest dialogue. This episode delivers transparency on the challenges and opportunities facing Certified Flooring Installers—empowering you with the insights you need to shape the industry’s next chapter.

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What is up, guys? Welcome back to the Huddle, your weekly playbook helping you gain forward progress in the field of

flooring. Simply put, we're here to help you win. For our new viewers, welcome to

the team. As always, I got Mr. Daniel and Jose

Gonzalez. And we already got comments. All right.

Yeah. Uh from Preferred Flooring in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Uh today's a

very special episode. Today's topic is an open mic with CFI. What's going on?

Essentially, we have the uh executive advisory board of CFI

with us today. Uh we got Rod, Lesie, and Rand, and Phillip. And our goal today is

to take your questions, present them to the panel and have a discussion. So we

uh as always highly encourage uh participation. I also want to say if

you're catching us on uh YouTube, Facebook, any of the platforms, give us

a like, subscribe, you know, give us some thumbs up, some some thumbs down, whatever you feel like is necessary. We

just want you to interact with us. So, that being said, welcome everybody. Hope

today's going well. How's everyone doing? Good. Good. All right. Well, I

want to thank everybody for being here. Uh, specifically the uh advisory board

executive team. Like to go around maybe let the audience know a little bit about you. Um,

you know, how'd you get in flooring? Uh, how'd you get in involved with CFI and what are you doing now in flooring? So,

uh, from my screen, I think it's set up the same way everywhere. Uh, we'll start

with Rollin at the top and we'll just make a big circle. So, Rand,

I'm sorry. I Let's start with Rod. Rod, I was gonna say, I was gonna say on my screen, I'm I'm

next. I'm the last. Got the first joke out of the way. All right, good enough. Here. So, we'll see. I've been in the

industry since 1978, so quite a number of years. Uh, got involved while I was

still going to college as an installer. Been in it ever since. Um, started with

CFI in 95, which is uh, actually went to their convention the second year that

the organization was in existence. Uh, got certified at convention, which is

something we don't do anymore, but was pretty interesting. a couple days prior to certification, you'd come into town

and go through the certification and then uh hung around and and got to go to

the convention, which was pretty interesting. And so to date, I've missed one C one convention since. So I've been

to 29 of the 30, so I've done pretty well. Currently, I'm vice president of

operations for CDI floors here in Kentucky. All right, Lesie. So, I've been in the

industry for 27 years. Um, almost 28, but I came in kind of a roundabout way.

I accepted a graphic design position here at QEP Roberts. Um, did graphic

design and and art packaging, all that stuff for many, many years. It wasn't

until, well, we've always been part of CFI. I think almost always been part of CFI as um as a corporation. Uh about

five years ago, my job changed a little bit and uh it became very important to

us to make sure that we were being part of the solution of bringing that next

generation in and supporting the installers and and being the voice of the installers. So the more I did that,

the more I got involved with CFI because it's an amazing group and that's what they do. And uh then I was asked to be

part of the advisory board. And so between my travels uh talking to

installers and representing um the installers, trying to be the voice, um I I've become very very

familiar with CFI and uh love it. It's family.

Awesome. Phillip, welcome to the podcast, sir.

Thank you. Thank you. So I was born into the industry.

my dad installed for uh if

my brother out he drove was two hours to

a chapter Danny Sherman shop and two hours back that one chapter

meeting sold me and uh currently I'm the eastern

representative for crane cutter

Nice, Mr. Rollin.

All right. Well, it all depends on who you talk to, Daniel or or you guys. And

I've been doing it 150 years, but in I started in 1972

at least. I started in 1972. I've been doing it. This is 53rd year. I

have uh Thompson's flooring installation and consulting service. So, as the name

is, I do uh each one of those things. I do some uh of course the flooring store

uh business, but also do some consultant inspections and and training. So, uh

that's what I do. Uh I got involved with CFI in actually uh 2002.

Uh the first few times they went through, I didn't see any need for it. I was one of those installers that I've

been doing it 30 years. Why do I why do I need to get certified? And but then I

realized was my daughter actually. She said, "Dad," she said, "Why not? You don't have a foreign college, you know,

you know, you always want to improve yourself and you always want to show what you can do, you know, go do it."

And uh with the the pride of uh Junior Harris and David Hunt, uh I said,

"Okay." and got got certified and and then I liked like the family feel of it

and I liked the uh what it was uh looking it could do and here I am.

Awesome. Well, I'm glad you guys all um are here with

us today. We're going to get kicked off with the the topic. We'll get to some

questions as they come up. Uh but the the topic is uh

what's going on, you know, so who wants to just kind of kick it off. Right now

CFI is uh doing something. It's going to continue. So tell us a little bit about

what's going on. Well, I guess I'll take that. Yeah,

unless you really want to, but I think uh can we can we just start at this question right here that I'm going to

put up? You know what is CFI? Let's Let's start there. Let's start with the basics. I saw that question. Yeah.

All right. Well, go ahead, Roland. No, you run with it.

You don't want to get me started talking, do you? All right. So, CFI, Certified Floor Covering Installers

Association, which was founded back in 1993. Okay.

uh it was brought uh about to be able to organize uh the flooring industry at a

point where there really wasn't much structure. There was a lot of people out there that were good at their craft but

weren't getting much recognition. So, a group of gentlemen got together and decided that a certification would

help identify those that knew what they were doing versus those that were just out there doing work. And so that was

the original purpose behind CFI was to identify the professionals in the industry

and CFI started. Can you get just a little bit of background on uh how CFI

started and maybe what the um

like uh maturity of it or or whatever. Most places start at some point and you

know grow into what they are today. Yeah, it started in the Midwest. Um, I

think many people that are familiar with CFI certainly know the the Walkers, Jim and Jane, and and they were very

instrumental in getting the organization off the ground, but there was a a much larger group than that. Um, most places

start I'm getting a little feedback, but anyhow, they uh they got together at a

couple different meetings to discuss their options and what they were trying to trying to accomplish. And they

finally landed on uh this certification program and it started out with carpet

only and over time it's evolved into the other floor finishes as well.

So currently we offer training in in all four floor finishes and certification in

three of the four and that would be uh carpet resilient or

LVP uh hardwood and tile. Well, ceramic

we've recently formed a joint venture with CTF group uh ceramic child

education foundation and uh for many years we had separate but very similar

programs. So uh I'll give Dave Garden some uh some

kudos there. Dave was instrumental in helping get that off the ground. And we now have a five-week education program

that is co-branded by CTF and CFI to educate entry level ceramic installers.

And then the career path of course is then to push them towards getting their CTI certification.

Awesome. And and we C CFI held the first

uh CTI at a CFI location uh last year. So, uh, you know, we're partnering with

them is, you know, they're the se, you know, they're the se uh ceramic tile people and we see where that's important

for us to realize that and and and partner up with that. Awesome.

Good deal. Well, let's get to uh the topic. That was a great intro because

actually I think understanding what CFI is for some some people who may not know is important. Um

every I I'll set the question up with it's it's clear that there's been a

separation of duty with uh the executive vice president I believe was the the uh

term the title or the title. Uh so what's going on now? How's how's CFI um

approaching uh the future and how long does that outlook look look like?

Well, CFI has uh decided not to rehire that

position temporarily. We do assume at some point in the future we will be

hiring another uh person to fill that role. The uh the difference is in what

that role will be in the future. Okay, we're still sorting this out, but

uh many many years ago before WFCA uh purchased CFI, CFI was ran by its

advisory board, board of directors at that time. We had a uh an education

director. That isn't that the term we used back then, Ron? We didn't call him executive director, did we? I'm trying

to remember. Uh no, we we had he he was the educational director. Correct. you

had John Namba there for a while and in that that position and so the board was

still responsible for kind of creating strategic strategy for the group each

year and then monitoring our progress and and helping the staff make decisions

in terms of what opportunities we should pursue and which ones we should leave alone. And there are times that not

every opportunity is a good one. And so, uh, what we're doing now as an advisory

board is kind of taking back some of that responsibility and now getting a

little bit more heavily involved in the interim until we decide that uh hiring a

new person for the role Ralph just left. Um, and then like I said, we expect it

to be structured a little bit different than it has been in the in the most recent past. Yeah. And that that leads

to one of the questions we got in an email, right? because it says, you know, CFI has had several leadership changes

in recent years. How has that affected stability,

direction, and long-term planning with the organization? I I'll take that on, Rod. For one thing,

uh, we've always had to add to what Rod said, even though we've had the

executive board and now we have the advisory board, CFI's always had committees that any member any member

can can put on and ask to be on either a carpet committee, you know, LVP

committee, hardwood committee, and that's done not by board members, uh,

advisory board members. that's done by all members. So you you can get on, you

can help with curriculum, you can help put that stuff together and everything else. So that's always been there still

there and actually we beg for people who have the knowledge and that to come on and help with that. So we want people

there. So that answers that part of that question that Rod was talking about with CFI's uh doing. Uh then the other is as

far as the um you know we haven't had as many as what you think. I'll just be straightforward with this. You know, uh

when Robert decided or decided to move on and move on to to do what what he's

doing, u we look for somebody. We hired they hired somebody sort of a rush to

get somebody in that position feeling that they needed to have that position filled.

It took one uh convention for all the members and

we're talking about the members. We're not talking about the board members. We're talking about all the members. It took one convention, which is only a few

months into his reign, to realize that he wasn't the fit. All right. So, uh, he

moved on. Uh, and Steve Abernathy at that time, we didn't have anybody. We

weren't we didn't go through it. Steve Apherny came in with WFCA and he took

over for about two years. that spot knowing when he came on he was getting close to retirement and was going to

step down. So we knew that for two years that that that in in a certain amount of

his time was going to be over and during that two years we flourished. You know

we grew you know he let the board that that you you're looking at now but

there's some other people we have new ones on since in the last year. Uh but he let us, you know, and and he listened

to us and when we asked him stuff, wanted to put stuff on, he was more than willing to stand there and and support

us and be there for us. But he retired. So we, you know, they felt they needed

to have another executive director. And that's when Ralph came on. And I I I

think Ralph would still be there today, but they brought him on part-time. I don't think a lot of people realize that

he didn't come on full-time. He came on part-time and he had his other business that he was uh working with, but he was

standing in the back. Well, things changed and, you know, and he made the decision

to, you know, care for his family, take care of his family, uh that he could do

what he could do. and his business that he had purchased which most of everybody's seen that he advertises

uh uh he's working to be able to support his family in in that way. So I don't

think we really have had the drastic change and the drastic um fall apart

because the core people have always been there. our our staff, John John McCale

and Jen Zern and that are are there. They're staple people in in our

organization. The board is still there that's ready to step up and has been

stepping up for the last two years when Steve was there. So, uh I don't think it's as bad as what what people want to

make it think look like and and feel. Uh we're we've flourished in the last two

years. We've had more certifications. We've had more people coming back. We've had vendors come back. I mean, you know,

uh, our conventions have have rose, uh, with with people in and vendors and, uh,

coming back. So, uh, I think we're in a good place. Can I just add to that just

real fast? Yeah, go ahead. So just from you know I I work at a corporate company

and we've had a lot of vice presidents of sales. It doesn't mean that we as a

company are weak or weaker or stronger or whatever like sometimes you go

through personnel and it doesn't mean that the entire structure the entire foundation changes. Um, so I I think

that's kind of what Roland was saying as well that we're still very firm. Our

foundation is still there and we're going to grow on that. We're going to build. Okay. Uh there is a clarification

over here. Someone said that um before it was in fact executive director. It

wasn't like director of education like you guys were saying. So I don't know. I I wasn't I've not

been in it that long. And it could have been it's been it could have been. We haven't had one of those for for since

uh the the 200 probably 10. We haven't

had that position. Uh Jim Walker was always the the CEO and we only had two

of those in in the time I remember. Uh, so as being called the executive

executive director, it could have very well been. Okay. And we got Dan Churchill on here right now with a with

his conversation starters. We all know this. Let's just start with the my question.

Just go to that part where it's read from there, Daniel. Okay. My question is

who is the president? Who is the director of education? like so I guess

uh we're looking at titles but that that title of executive vice president is no

longer there, right? Well, let me clarify something which is probably going to confuse people but it it

probably needs to be said nonetheless. Okay. WFCA

when they hire people to run a specific organization that that title is associated with WFCA.

they are a vice president of WFCA. So that's where that vice president comes in. Okay. Now CFI is a subsidiary

of WFCA. Okay. So you don't necessarily have a president of CFI.

Okay. You have Yeah. I think I think some of that confusion comes in in the

corporate world and maybe we can speak to this a little bit. In the corporate world, when a Coca-Cola, for example,

buys or a Pepsi buys a another company, there's typically the CEO of the entire

uh umbrella overarching structure and then presidents of each uh entity that

answer directly to the CEO and thus the board. So in that um way I think is

where some of the questions might come up that who is the president who who's leading the charge and I want to this is

just something I'm going to add is that the the

wanting to have someone in charge. I was just going to go back to what Leslie said earlier that that very frontlining

person. So, whoever is like in charge of uh the organization are often the the

face, right? They're the they're out there. Uh what you don't see is maybe some of the positive hirings and other

stuff that happens in an organization um where you the executive uh vice

president or executive director whatever the the title is if that position uh

gets vacated in one way or another that's so much more on the front lines and people want to know about it. So to

tie this back to the business regular business world, you know, if the CEO of

Pepsi uh gets uh let go or quits tomorrow, that's going to be on ABC News. So it's because of that frontline

uh you know, kind of leadership position, I think, is where a lot of the people are are um uh questioning what's

going on. Well, Paul, what we have now as it

stands and is that Rod is the chair of

the advisory board. He also the chair of the advisory board also sits on the

board of directors of WFCA. So when he we WSCA has meetings like they just had

one in Phoenix, Rod is there representing CFI

uh to the board of directors of WFCA. So that if you want to look at who's I

guess would be in charge and he's he's humble so he's you know he's not gonna

say hey look at me. He might I don't know. Anyway anyway he

Hey, you know you are you are any but he is in that position and and u that's why

we have the executive board of the advisory board is so there is some kind

of leadership there right I think a lot of people are looking for one person but the fact of the matter is

is that it's many people that get together and make decisions and take that to the WFCA well and that's what

happens in directors usually makes the decisions for the group. It's rarely one

individual and you know we have had times in our past where most of the

power within the organization rested with one or two people. Uh I think

that's personally I think that's a mistake. Okay. I think there are so many gifted and passionate people in our

organization that are willing to step up and participate in leadership that we should be taking full advantage of that.

So the fact that we don't quote have a president currently

shouldn't alarm anybody. It it really doesn't speak to a weakness. Rather, it

speaks to the strength of this organization that we're not going to miss a beat. I know time will prove

whether or not I'm I'm accurate in making that statement, but I can tell you that at least these four people that

are sitting in front of you now are committed to making things the very best we can for CFI. Yes, I was I was I was

going to just jump in real quick. So there uh one of the questions is that

I'm gonna pop it back up here. Denise said, you know, the leader that Daniel just uh um kind of uh referred to the

one of the questions, how long do you think CFI can operate by committee? Is it sustainable not to have a this says

director a leader who is ultim and then who is ultimately responsible for making

tough decisions in this current structure. So that maybe extrapolates

the whole question like who's our leader? They really want to know is

is this a sustainable method? Uh um and then is who is in charge of ultimately

in charge of making tough decisions? C can I jump in real fast because I've

heard so much chatter out there about for the installer by the installer. So

it's to me this is perfect scenario. The me we're we are the members. Um you

know you're looking at your advisory board. Uh we're we're all members. Um we

are your voice. So for us to be able to take those voices and push them up

through ROD and into WFCA, I I don't know why that wouldn't be the

perfect scenario. Um, now if we are not being utilized or or if we're not

talking and and saying the things that uh need to be said, then then you need

to change the advisory board. But I highly doubt that that's happening

because we are all very aware of what our members are saying and and how

they're feeling. Yeah, just to I have a question about that too. Um, if we're talking about a

progression that goes up the ladder like that, what is the ultimate

purpose of CFI viewed through the eyes of the WFCA?

So, what is the purpose of your question is what is the purpose CFI

being utilized for? Right. if it's got to trickle up and we and we as a as members and as a group have to answer to

them because I I I understand the they pretty much own the CFI brand, right?

How much of what we're doing is going to hold weight at that table and then it's,

you know, we trickle the information up. We say, "Hey, this is where we're at, what we need, what we want. How much of

that is being implemented back down?" Um, they have to see it as value at some

point, right? Let me Rod, you need to answer that because he was at the big meeting. Well,

let me see if I can't form that properly. Okay. One, it doesn't just

trickle up. I mean, at any point in time, if if I want to get a member of the board on the phone, I pick up the

phone call. They're very receptive. Okay. I will tell you that having been

the CFI representative with WFCA for the last two years that we have a very

strong support amongst the WFCA board. And there's always confusion about

ownership and I understand that. I I really do. People say, "Well, WFCA owns

you, so they must be telling you what to do." It's never worked that way. And I I

know it sounds almost foreign to think, well, they're just giving you money and they're letting you do whatever you want. No, that's not necessarily true.

We have to submit a budget. We have to explain what we intend to do with the money they give us. But for the most

part, as long as we give a responsible

uh position out there, they accept it and we go on down the road together. Uh

it's very encouraging for me the support that we've received particularly in the

last two years. Prior to that I had some doubts too. Okay. And until I sit in

that room with the with them and and listen to them talk about how important they thought CFI was to the to the WFCA

overall. I really thought somewhat the same way I'm sure some of our listeners did. Well, that's too good to be true.

They're not just giving them money. Well, I will tell you WFCA does give a

lot of money to this to this industry to support a lot of different aspects. They're the number one funer behind

FCEF, Floor Covering Education Foundation. They're out there trying to

train young adults on how to get into the industry. I mean,

I I think that if you guys look around right now, there's a lot of momentum in that direction and and FCF is doing

doing a great job. Uh K did a outstanding job over the last 18 months

and since she's taken over leadership, they have really accomplished a great deal. But again, that organization

wouldn't exist if it wasn't for WFCA helping with the funding and and helping support that with other resources in the

same manner that they support CFI. So, I know it sounds like, wow, it's too

good to be true. Well, there's limits to everything. Certainly if we went out there and blew our budget every year and

wasn't showing any progress and wasn't moving closer to a balancing our budget

because right now they're picking up a pretty healthy share of the cost, then they might look at us differently.

But that's a retailer's organization. They know the value of having quality

installers out there working on their behalf every day. Yeah, I think it makes I think it makes

perfect sense for WFCA to uh care about

uh installer uh training and certification and and

building the installer. I mean, they're very uh main customer relies on them

greatly. We've all heard it said about how, you know, a flooring looks pretty in the showroom, but the number one

factor whether it looks good in your house or not is that installer. So, at the end of the day, we all serve the

community or the the consumer who buys these products and thus buys our labor.

Uh, one of the, um, questions that came up here, uh,

that I wanted to touch on is, uh, I'm going to reframe it a little bit, but, um,

if you have to explain and they say no or say less money uh, is available, then

that means they're running CFI and not the members like you say. who who

measures the progress CFI or WCAC.

So essentially that real quick, Paul, at least since I've been acquainted with

the board, they've not turned down anything we've asked for. So if if if

you were saying, "Well, geez, we we asked them for a million dollars and they said, "No, you can't have a million dollars." Yeah, that would probably be a

true statement. They wouldn't give us a million dollars unless we could prove to them exactly how we were going to spend

it, how it was going to benefit the industry overall. So, you know, yes, I understand. And and

in the normal mentality, you say, "Well, whoever's paying the bills is it's got

to be in charge." Well, yeah. Yes and no. Charable organization works, but but

we're also um we have to stay within our budget, too. They're not just going to keep

writing checks, keep writing checks. Um, you know, they're going to give us a

certain amount of money and then we have to decide sometimes whether we're doing this this

program or that program or whatever. Um, but it's it's they're not saying yes or

no. They're they're saying this is how much you have to spend on whatever you're trying to do and then we have to

decide the right way to spend that money to do what we need. Yeah. We got a budget. Yeah, thanks for touching on

that because that that was one of the questions from the from an email was how much autonomy does CFI have under the

WFCA in terms of funding priorities and governance like so they just give you a

budget and then it's up to CFI to figure everything else out. Well, we submit a

budget. We have to be a good we have to be good stewards of our money just like any any business, you know, or any home.

If you're running, you're doing things at home, you have certain amount of money you you have access to and you got

to be good stewards of it and and use it wisely. And that's what the the CFI

advisory board and and and uh headquarters uh tries to do. And I think

that's Oh, go ahead. I think that's some people's misconception is that they look

at it as a nonprofit and not a actual business. But the fact of the matter is

a nonprofit is a business. So, absolutely. Absolutely. Some of the biggest organizations on the planet are

nonprofits and and quite honestly, nonprofits have to stick to a budget even tighter because they have to be

able to justify um that they're grant money or anything. They have to they're

run tighter than non nonprofits. for rapid fire a little bit here to get

caught up on some questions. So, I just want to uh see if we can get a quick uh

hard answer on who measures the progress of CFI?

Who measures like if if a um if if we

have if CFI has a initiative, who's measuring the progress? Like who who's

the accountability person? And I don't think you anyone's going to be able to get it like completely away from this.

We're so used to having a leader. We have a president of the country. We have presidents of companies. We have the a

team leader on our crews all the way down to the installer, right? We we have

someone there. So these we're not going to I think we're going to continue to

get questions about this, but uh who measures the progress? who who says, "Hey, we did a great freaking job this

year," or, "We did not." Or is that only measured against the proposed metrics?

So maybe you say, "We're going to grow CFI by TW membership by 20% this year,"

and you're only judged by how close you got to that. But or like I'm just given

an option, but do you understand? I think there's more critical analysis there than than than just how did you

measure against your goals. Um, but I I will say this that look,

what we do at CFI is measured by the members comments today. If they're not

happy with something we're we're doing, maybe some of it can be confusion. Maybe some of it can be poor communication on

our part. Some of it may be genuine. Hey, they don't think we're doing a very

good job in one particular area. And you know,

people don't necessarily always want to believe, but the bottom line is is that we want

your criticism. And the reason we want your criticism is so that we can then do the right thing

by you. If we don't know what's going on in people's heads and what they think

this organization should be to them, then we then we wouldn't represent the membership very well, would we? So, we

need that feedback. Philip, you haven't said anything and and people don't

understand just how super intelligent you are because you're st sit so darn quiet all the time. He's listening.

Well, let me direct this next question straight straight at you, Philip. Yeah.

Uh, one of the questions speaking of criticism is the the new logo

both good and bad. But uh what is the uh there's two different logos uh and they

represent who you say the bullseye is for the installer and always will be why

two CFI is for and by installers and we stand as one. Um so

Philip you want to address that one or if my internet holds

up I will. Uh, so we've had two logos for a long time now. We've had the one

behind me and we've had the squares. So WFCA has just modernized all the logos

under their brand to bring all the brands together. But if you're a certified installer,

that's still the original logo that's still hanging on.

I I don't know. Like we've had the squares for years and nobody questioned it. We went from the squares to the new

logo. Now everybody's questioning. They just modernized it and brought us up

under the umbrella with the other guys. Right. And I think Leslie could probably touch on this since she's in marketing

more. Right. And it's it's that's all it is. It's a rebrand of something that's already there. It really is. and and and

I think there was um push back when they went to the the square logos if I if I

remember correctly. But I mean even at QAP Roberts we've changed our logos.

We've gotten bad feedback. People don't like change. Um

CocaCola has changed their logo. it. Sometimes you just need a refresh and

WFCA went through and did a refresh of all of their affiliates, pulled them all

under one umbrella. And it really is a good thing because at the end of the

day, we want to show that we're part of a a bigger movement and a a bigger presence.

It it gives us strength. Um, so yeah, so people saying that now we

have two logos, there's confusion. There's always been two logos. Philip said it exactly. Um, well, I was going

to build on that just a little bit. I mean, logos change and brands change because people change and so when when

uh when things change, you modernize things uh to uh keep with that change.

So that that's uh that's kind of a normal progression of a organization. Um

on to the next one here. It it says a little history. How much support did WFCA give CFI when Jane and Jim were

running things? I don't know what that exactly means other than uh what it I

don't believe they were even involved at that point. Yeah, they they were Paul uh

[Music] Chris Davis was was uh the head of WFCA

and every year he saw that CFI got at least $50,000 from WFCA every year. Uh

sometimes there's a little bit more, sometimes a little bit less, but but at least there was no normally is at least

50,000, sometimes a little bit more. Yes, WSDA has been supporting CFI from

almost the beginning. All right. Well, that answers that. Nice and direct. On to the next one. Uh, so does the board

vote to make the final decisions that get brought to the WFCA.

So, when there's something that comes up that needs address, does it? We don't.

as long as we stay within our own mission statement. Okay, I'm assuming most people

understand what a mission statement is and and so it describes what your

organization stands for, right? And as long as we stay within the parameters of our mission statement

and unless we're going to ask for more money, we don't have to ask permission for anything we do. Now, if we were

making poor decisions, that'd be a much different situation, I'm sure. But as as

long as we're true to what the organization stands for, we don't have to go ask permission to do anything. We

we just as Leslie said a minute ago, we balance our resources to be able to

choose which is the better opportunity and then that's the one you pursue. No, nobody's actually holding our strings

and saying we want you over here. That's not the way it's working. Okay. And like

I said, it's uh it's an interesting dynamic and I understand why people are confused by it, but nonetheless, it is

how it is working. Well, truth is there's a staff that does the day-to-day operations and has job descriptions that

they work within. And I think this might have been uh I'm going to embellish a

little bit maybe, but it might have been more of a question on big changes. If

something big is going to change, does the board vote on it and then take it to WFCA for final approval or does CFI are

they able to say, "Hey, we're going to implement X, Y, and Z, whatever that might be." Um, we're going to implement

X, Y, and Z just to let you know, CFI. So, is it hey or WFCA? Is it, hey WFCA, we're we're

doing this, it's within our budget and everything's good, even if it's a big change, or does it like, hey, WFCA, can

we do this? That seems to be Well, let me let me use this as an example. If we

decided tomorrow that we wanted to go ahead and pursue hiring a new individual to take over the executive director

role, then that would have to be approved by WFCA's board.

Okay, those are the levels of decisions that would have to be taken up up the ladder

to to their board because again that person actually gets hired by WFCA

to run the CFI division. Now again, we're looking at a little bit different structure in the future um because

honestly, there you go. Dave put it up for us. There's our mission statement. Um,

but we're looking for a lot more transparency and a a lot less individual leadership,

but more of a group concept where everybody has more of a voice in the in

the decision-m process. So, I'm just going to read the mission statement. It's uh CFI exists to elevate, promote,

and represent the professionalism of flooring installation. And then a couple

clarification is uh we saying that the WFCA used to

give CFI uh average of $200,000 a year prior to the acquisition

and that there was yours said they were I know it

was at least 50 and I said there was time and that's why it's an average and then the other one is um

about what Paul was saying earlier and we kind of just touched on it, right? You know, and this is directly from

you'll probably know who it's directly from, but he says that it it all falls

on the person running the association and not the advisory board because it fell on him when he was the executive

director. the structure was different under his

watch than what I'd like to see it be in the future. I will say that. Okay, we'll

leave it. We'll leave it at that. All right. I missed that question. I

didn't see it. What was that question? It it wasn't even a question. It was just a statement that it falls on the

executive director and not the board. Okay. And well, for clarification again,

we're part of a large organization. Okay? So, when WFCA purchased CFI, just

to give you some background, CFI had a board of directors prior to the purchase. After the purchase, the

board of directors was dissolved. It transitioned into an advisory

capacity. Okay. Now once we transition that way we lost some

of the ability to influence what was being done daytoday within the organization. Most of the power shifted

from the board of directors to that executive director position which literally gave one person a great deal

of control over the path and direction of the organization. What we're trying to do is move back closer to where we

were prior. Gotcha.

I think a fair question that's come up is now that the W uh FCA has bought two

other entities, the NFIC and FCITS, what effect does that have on the CFI

advancement? They each will have their own budget.

Other words, uh they aren't going to at least, you know, unless things could change. I mean, we'll be realistic, but

you know, right now, as it stands, our budget has not been cut or or changed whatsoever, and the uh budgets will be

set for each one of those organizations, and they they have their own um structure. NFIC has their own advisory

board and uh it they're they're all run separately still. Could they work

together with the installers from CFI um with all the other entities in there? It

this includes the FCEF as well. FCEF we don't uh that has its own

structure. Uh the NFIC uh a lot of us same people are on on on

uh you know on that board you know committee also.

Well, I was u also referring to the installers trainers being utilized for

um all the entities or the trainers in Yeah, because it is part

Yeah. Well, they have to be NFI certified just like if you're a CFI trainer, you have to be you can't train

over the level that you are. All right. So for somebody to be a trainer for NFIC, they would have to be NFIC

certified, which is still part of, you know, of our organization and, you

know, WFCA, both NFIC and CFI.

Well, I'm going to make uh I'm gonna read a comment and then can you uh take one of you two take uh Kevin's question

next, but uh it says so CFI isn't ran by the people. It's ran by the WFCA.

I think uh I'm going to add two cents here. Uh it I I just want to recap what

has already been said. I'm not giving an opinion, but what you've already said is

CFI uh is given or uh submits its budget to the WFCA for

what it needs and its its goals and and you know curriculum or whatever the the

goals are for the year. And uh once that's approved then CFI operates

somewhat autonomously from the WFCA as long as they are working within those

things. So while it's it this is typical I just want to say of other companies

too like that you know having a a a we're getting ready to start a

maintenance division at my company for example. the my maintenance head of

maintenance is going to have to submit to me the goals and and initiatives for

the year with the and we will give them a budget but it's his job to run it

profitably and make it make it work and has autonomy to for that to happen and

so um I wanted to recap that and then just add a quick statement but go ahead

and Elena well Elena's comment actually ties into this. So she says the confusion comes because when we ask the

office the answer is we have to check with the WFCA.

So I think that's like so where is that that line at where you're autonomous

versus we have to ask the only thing that well and that and that was the case

uh you know this is all new you know it was the case that that's when you called

in there you they say well let's check with WSCA you know and they rolling you're you're

muddying the water here that's that's really not the case so Okay, let's make sure we're clear right

now. And I know what Elena is referring to because

this year for the first time, WFCA has agreed to help with marketing

and they actually put a group together to a professional group together to help

promote marketing for all their brands under the WFCA. So, it's a centralized approach. Okay. So Freda Staten is

running that up, who's one of the VPs at at WFCA. All right. That hasn't even been launched yet. So when Elena calls

in and says, "Hey, can I market this?" And they said, "I got to go back to WFCA

because we have a marketing agreement with another association. I need to clarification." That's specifically what

Elena, I believe, is referring to. And if it's not, please Elena, get back on it. more about staying in line with some

of the bylaws and the rules that are been set forth.

Say that again. Jose said so it's more or less uh about staying within the

bylaws, the guidelines of the contract between WFCA and CFI. Correct. Yeah. As

long as we operate within that range, we we really don't have a lot of oversight.

So, um Kevin says, "What does CFI have planned for the near future to bring

value to the membership and draw in new members as well as trainers?

Philip, you want to take one?"

I know we've been working on it behind the scenes and we've been talking about a lot of stuff going forward about

getting more value to the members. Um, it's in the books. I know it's being

discussed at our advisory board meetings and there are some stuff we are working

on. And B, you want to expand on any

specific uh thought processes maybe that that are that the board's uh considering

or any of that? So, obviously our goals are to bring more value, right? We

always want to have value for the members and and it takes a lot of work. It's not just an easy snap of the

fingers. Last year, our goal was to start up the chapters again. Um Roland

did a great job of of doing that. We're up to what 12 13 chapters.

Yeah. Uh 12 ch uh 12 chapters. Um, so we want to bring value to the chapters as

well and and get the their programs up and running and be able to bring in

people that are talking um and presenting and bringing them, you know,

people that show up at the U chapter meetings uh get get something special.

and uh we're looking at you know convention bringing more value even to

convention and bringing more vendors to to convention. Um

we know that one of the things that is really important to us is to come back

to more value for the members. Um it's not just enough to be able to say you

can market it, you can do whatever you want with it. it it's up to you to market yourself. We have to teach people

how to market that. We have to um give classes on how to network and how to how

to be able to push forward and utilize the network. Um so it's not just about

material things. It it's about being able to connect better with the members and making sure that they know how to

connect with each other. And it sounds like leveraging their their certifications and trainings and

teaching them how to do that in the marketplace to gain more business and leveraging their their great new

training. Is that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like we we

need to be better at after people are certified following up to show them um

what to do with it after that or even just presenting it and to people that aren't certified to explain why they

need to be certified. Uh Jonathan Varden says WFCA has always

helped with marketing. We had TK Fusion a professional marketing company through

the WFCA. Freda has always helped with marketing since 2015 and and I don't

think that he like when Rod was talking about he said that it's just a brand new thing with the marketing right it's just

that I mean I mean even before a few years ago it was like no you can't use this because we have to go through

marketing it's always been like that it's just probably even more strict now

well here here's what's going on is that uh TK Fusion has always been responsible

for produ producing any press releases we send out. Okay, that all gets ran

through them and they and they write them up. Um, and then some of the global

stuff that they do in terms of advertising has been done through TK Fusion. A lot of stuff that we do

leading up to TIC each year. So, yes, they've always had some involvement, guys. This year, for the first time

ever, they actually put together a strategic plan for marketing. That's a quite a different focus.

Yeah. I think some of the the point is is that some of the stuff that people are seeing are have changes, but it

doesn't mean that it wasn't already there. Like Philip said, there's always been two logos. There's always been help

with marketing. Uh so some of this stuff seems like it's coming out to the maybe

just coming off of people's chest or coming out in the forefront. But um is

the advisory board planning to continue promoting training for Hispanic people? So Spanish speaking um

uh you know supporting the Hispanic community um what kind of efforts or um

planning specifically to promote training for the Hispanic community? So I I think that uh

of course um it's it's a huge industry out there. It's a huge part of our our

membership and it's really important to do. Um

I think that um where we really need to push forward isn't

just the training but the marketing of it as well. Um, so again, that's where

WFCA can help us is is to pull all of

the uh instructional material into Spanish and and do it um do more of it

and do it better. And we have two young Hispanic um

members on the advisory board. Uh first time ever that I I know of. uh so you

know uh we we are you know staying to that and and continue to grow on that.

So is there there is uh um talk and movement on helping and engaging with

the Hispanic community to further their trainings and do those kinds of things. Absolutely.

So, I have a a question that's a little um off of that topic right there. And u

it's a a brighter question, not so in depth on how the corporation is. Is um

how is CFI work and help certified installers actually use their credentials to win bids, get hired or or

earn more money? Is that part of the marketing plan as well? Yeah, I mean that comes back to

the the the marketing that value ad, right? and what can we do for for that

membership and and part of it is that um that training of of how to network, how

to market. Um yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, on the commercial, sorry,

Daniel, Jose, on the on the uh on the commercial side, we've been marketing

for many, many years through specification. Um, if you pick up a commercial

specification here in Kentucky, and I know it to be true in a lot of the surrounding states as well, that it says

that you have to be a C2 certified mechanic to even bid the work. Uh, you're seeing more and more of that.

It's harder to create that same angle to make an impression on the residential

side of the industry. But it doesn't mean we're not making an effort. It's just there are some things

that begrudgingly you don't seem to make much progress, but we haven't given up hope that we could impact that. All

right. And as far as the literature that you're saying that is stated or required,

um it's a little misleading at times looking at a commercial document where it says qualified verse certified. Um

because that is a broad term. How can we get it back to

when when I first started looking at prints and drawings, it would say certified, not qualified. How can we get it back to

that to um better help the the individuals investing in their

education? Yeah, just to reframe that, I think you're you're essentially asking how can

it be there be more of the C2 certification requirements versus uh the

quality uh of qu five-year installer of quality. That's the most popular

specification in con in the commercial world is a quality installer of 5 years

or more, which tells you nothing or does nothing versus saying CFI C2

certification. Is that essentially correct, Jose? That is right. And it doesn't necessarily have to have that

exact title, but it's got to have a measurable and um maybe a title over that measurable that better describes

the ability of an individual installer. Well, I will tell you that there's room

to to improve. There's no question. Okay. And I will also tell you that that

one of the proudest things for me is to walk into a retail store I've never walked into before and see the bullseye

on the on the door. At least there was a time when that was

very important to the retailer. And I I do think we can do a much better job of going back and attacking that segment of

more aggressively to bring value to the to the guys that are working locally.

It, like I said, commercial is what I do. It's what Paul does. So, we're it's what you guys do. So, we're all very

familiar with what goes on in the commercial world. Um, I think it's very important that we put some focus on the

residential market as well, particularly in a year that it's been not so friendly. It's been pretty tough on a

lot of our residential installers. Well, the retailers really have to, this just a quick opinion, uh, the retailers

really have to leverage their marketing to uh to say, "Hey, we we sell the same

stuff pretty much as anybody else. What sets us apart is that on the door that

you just walked by and seen." That's what sets us apart. That's in some version of that. Um, retailers could go

gain a lot of uh credit by by leveraging their their installer and the installer

strength they have. Um, I think that would be excellent. Well, it's all a

part of that. That's what you're trying to package is is putting it all together

from time of purchase through the install and having certified mechanics, you got a better chance of being

successful. I firmly believe that. Yeah. when it comes to re uh residential

retail the high-end uh you know manufacturers are start are

putting in their you know if I see even uh some of them are but they're putting

in well your everyday carpet and flooring that LVP and that that's going

out out the door that's going to come strictly down on the retailer knowing the value of what that is uh the

installer going out there knows what he's doing that that's a tough one, you know, it's been that way, Jose, for

years and years and years. That's, you know, getting the consumer to understand the value of somebody certified and

that, you know, that's that's a tough one. It's there's a lot of work to be done. To build on that, uh, some of the

questions, this will probably, uh, address a few of them. Is there, uh, are

there going to be more talks with the mills to work with certified installers? Now,

that's all the mil that the mills would have to actually put that in their installation instructions. They don't work with the installers mostly. They

work through a retailer or through a dealer. But, uh, and then there was another one uh that pertained to that as

well. Um, this one, yeah, the mail say there's not enough

certified installers. So, those two kind of go together. But

uh is there more talks with the mills to further embrace the uh CFI certification

as a as a standard for touching their products or anything like that? Well, I

think I don't think we've stopped talking to the mills. We've been dealing with the mills for years and we've

come up with uh new programs. Uh Jerry Miller had the advanced

commercial program. So I think I think the tops would we are

tweaking our training to help the mills out at this point

and and you know we have uh a mill representative in the installation world

that's the whole family and everybody else in in Dalton is uh very familiar

with. of Bruce Gentry and you know they're coming back and and they're looking at us more. So yeah, I think you

know we're we're making headway but doesn't happen overnight. And you have to remember two of our biggest sponsors

for our convention. Um you know they they

are they're showing up. Sean Mohawk, they're they're showing up. They're at our convention. in there. Um they showed

up in force last year to convention and they're going to do the same thing this year. So uh we are moving in the right

direction. It's not going to be easy. We're asking them that to make some substantial changes. Um but we're not

going to give up. You know this. So I got to add add something to that real quick. Sorry for

for interrupting here, but there was a comment that said if the the mills are saying that there's a shortage of

certified installers then and and if this is a whole marketing thing, then why aren't the mills marketing that they

might not need the literature that says must be installed by, but why aren't they marketing a certified installer to

be the first person or company to look at? You're absolutely right. And honestly, the the

fast answer is they're afraid to alienate anyone or or lose money or lose

money. Um so it's education of everyone of why it would be beneficial.

That that's why it's not an an easy fix. Now, I will say this, and it's not it's

not widely known and and probably not widely exercised, but I I do know for a

fact that several uh mil tech reps are out there promoting CFI installers daily. Oh, yeah. Meaning, if somebody

calls in and says they've got a problem in their area and they're looking for somebody to help out, a lot of times

those tech reps know everybody in the market and they call and say, "Hey, you know, Paul, can you run over and take a

look at this? They've got a problem. they need some help on this woven product or whatever it might be. That

has been going on for many many years. Yeah. So, it it may not be a direct

marketing, which certainly is what we'd like to be able to get to, but I'm I'm going to

tell you, your credentials do mean something. And I think what a lot of the installers don't understand is they have

to market themselves, too, right? Cuz one of the questions from an email is what's being done to help the certified

installers use their credentials to win bids, secure jobs, or raise their rates.

And I've been to many like just meetings where they're like, "Well, you guys are

certified. I know because you guys market that, so you guys should be charging more. And I'm going to introduce you to this person because

they've been having issues with this other company." And that's what you have to market yourself. Like as an

installer, you have to be out there telling people, "Hey, I'm certified.

Come check out my jobs." And not only that, I'm certified, but why they m why they care. You know,

they're not going to get the call backs. They're not going to have the problems if if the the mill comes in or the

product comes in and and it's technically um you know, within spec,

but it's not quite perfect. you you're going to be able to install it and it's

going to be um nobody's going to know that it it was should effective. Yeah.

Even though it's still within spec. So, I'm going to try to ask a couple of more

questions here. What happened to the regional training program? Right now, we are seeing one person for the most part.

I don't know that I feel like that program has gone away. Uh until recently, uh Dave was heading up the

education division at the association. And I thought Dave did a great job of keeping all the regional trainers

involved and and and uh if they weren't actually out doing training, they were coming to train the trainer sessions and

and doing things internally. Um, I will tell you that obviously as the

residential market has been down this year, there are fewer carpet trainings

going on, which a lot of those regional certifiers are are people that have

specialized on on the carpet side, which probably has reduced a little bit of

their involvement, but that program has not gone away. There still are regional certifiers. Uh,

I don't think I've seen Jimmy Salsbury's name come up. Uh, Jimmy is a gentleman

out of Indiana that is a regional certifier and Rollins worked with him a couple times and and Jimmy has done a

great job and I'm sure that somewhere in the near future he's probably going to get promoted promoted up to senior

manager or senior uh certifier. But no, the program still is still still very

much in effect. We're probably not utilizing it as heavily as we maybe once did when we were doing more carpet

training, but it's still there. Is there a reason why uh the mills don't

sponsor trainings and try to get more people to them

to your I mean some in in an indirect fashion some mills do you know Tarquette

goes out and does their own training. True. I think that this might have been

more of a of a CFI like teaming up with CFI to to promote a train a training in

a large metro or something. It's not it's a it's a oneliner question. So yeah, I've had two regional or two uh

advanced resilient certifications here in Kentucky in the last year. On both occasions, I had Shaw come in one time.

Um, I had Zern's group come in one time and help out. So, we've had mills

participating. They don't necessarily sponsor the events and and and

I don't know from a legality standpoint if they can do it any more than you or I

Paul could sponsor for our subcontractors. There may be an issue there. I don't know of but but you would

think that they could participate more than they do but we're seeing more participation than we did in the past.

So I don't want Yeah. I don't want to call the I yeah not to call the mills out I should say but the um

you know obviously they want they want their products installed correctly. I think that's the the essence of the

question. And so getting involved in uh not indirectly but directly in specific

trainings uh that maybe uh they're having problems with. Um who knows? I

don't I'm I'm reading into the question a little bit. U that's so this this next

question is kind of a two-parter, right? So I'm gonna pop this one up here. Elena says, "When is the next C2

certification?" because she sees a lot of intro classes. And then we had one

come in that says, um, why does it seem like the FCEF is

receiving more attention and resources while CFI relies heavily on volunteers?

Because those intro a lot of intro classes are tied to the FCEF, I feel like, and doing that type of thing.

Why are we seeing FCEF is is teaching

high school and college um shop teachers

how to get students interested in joining the trade, right? Um, so that's

that's one aspect, but that's the FCEES is that's their resources and they

pulled together those trainings. Um, I guess I was just tying it together

because to for for that answer exactly, right? Because it's not just one or the other. It's this is coming from them.

Even though it's the same people that are that may be doing the classes, it's not necessarily coming out of CFI's

budget or anything. No. Doesn't the training come from CFI's instruction though?

I'm sorry, say that again. Doesn't the training come from CFI's instruction? Like, wasn't the curriculum

there? Certainly. There there is a separate curriculum that was developed. And again, Dave, thank you for your

involvement. Dave had a lot to do with developing that curriculum for their popular. Yeah,

he's on here. I might as well give him a give him a sign. U but Dave had a lot to

do with helping develop that curriculum and and taught the very first class there in Dalton, Georgia at the at the community college. Okay, that is not

quote an FC CFI program. However, when we go out and do our five-week sessions

or some of the other programs that we have, FCF funding helps pay for the the

scholarship to allow that installer to go participate.

Okay. And so, another one is with an association that utilizes a budget of

over $2 million, why does the WFCA expect CFI to survive utilizing so many

volunteers? because it's for the members. We I mean,

we can't have it both ways. We're either, you know, for the installer, by the installer, or we're run by the the

the big dog, right? So, I think it's almost a part of our

culture. Look how we started out. Look at how many certifiers ran across the country. Yeah. Doing work until this

day. Look at everybody sitting here right now. for all volunteers. It's

almost in CFI. Yeah. I mean, I'm not getting paid for

being on here today. Oh, the check's in the mail, Ran.

I was already to write my build up for I ought to charge you for how long it took

you to get your uh camera. Well, actually, I went to my Actually, I

went to my laptop. Oh, good. I'm on my lap. Yeah, if other people had seen the

dancing that you did earlier, my god, maybe you'd gotten paid for that. I don't know. So, I think this actually

ties back to you saying that, you know, everything is being marketed by the same

people now. And I think that was one of the issues before is they seen all this marketing for only the FCEF and nothing

was coming out for CFI. So, it kind of was like why are they getting so much attention and we're not?

Well, and FCF also is uh gets funding from uh from the the manufacturers and

you know and grants. Wait, wait, the grants. I I'm going to tell you, I don't know the actual numbers, but I have a

feeling that that Kay spends more than 68% of her time filling out grant

information. Um it they run a lot on grants, federal grants. So yeah, you

cannot compare the two at all. Yeah, totally different. And that and that that runs uh kind of across the

organization. And maybe a major point to make, WFCA has multiple different entities within it that have to run

separately uh and differently because of things like that. So uh if you take CFI, put in

a silo and say why aren't we getting what they're getting? you got that it can't be done that way. And maybe that

clears some confusion up. The fact is is it just can't be uh I know from uh other

experience that you FCF can't share grant money that they won the grant on

for a very specific thing that they're going to use that grant money for. So it

can't just get shoved over to another entity or something. So each one has to operate differently because each one's a

different organization which goes back to your original comment and we are

separate but we're uh under the same umbrella at and not only that it also

ties back to when Leslie was like you know nonprofits are under even stricter

guidelines than a for-profit company. So they have to keep track of exactly how they're spending all those funds because

all those funds have to only be allocated towards what it was meant for. So maybe you just found out I would love

to be able to go after a lot of grants. I personally am not good at grant

writing. So, uh, if there's any experts out there that want to look for grant money for a CFI, um, you you know how to

get a hold of me or some grant money to pay Roland in coffee.

Yeah, I've seen that. I didn't think there was enough coffee beans in the world to really pay him off.

Hey, I'm I I need a cup. It's It's past my cup time. No, I you

know the back to the volunteerism guys. I it'd be great to have a limited amount

of funds to do whatever we wanted and and and to be able to to do more marketing and and be able to do more

promotions and all all kinds of things that would be fun to do if we had more money, right? And more time. But you do

have to pick and choose what brings the biggest bang for the buck sometimes.

And without our volunteers, we couldn't accomplish a great deal that we have.

And well, there's also it's part of our culture. We we built this organization on volunteerism and it continues and in

for the foreseeable future it probably will be a volunteer organization, which

I said it's tough to have it both ways. you know, you get volunteers and I'm

going to tie this into what Jen uh commented that but you you got different

entities and uh volunteers and some are uh ran differently and Jen says, you

know, there's legalities that manage the divisions. Uh so there's

legal reasons why certain things happen.