The Huddle - Episode 146 - The Market Demand for Expert Witness and Forensic Tile Services

We’re diving into the growing demand for expert witnesses and forensic tile pros—and how this niche could be your next big opportunity. With special guest Vince Moisco, you won't want to miss this episode.

💡 What You’ll Learn in This Episode: We dive into the world of expert witness services in flooring with special guest Vince from California. You’ll learn the difference between inspectors and true experts, why proper training and licensing are critical, and how staying updated on industry standards like TCNA and NSI can make or break a project. We also cover the importance of product knowledge, floor prep, mock-ups, and strong industry relationships to ensure long-term success.

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what is up welcome to the huddle we're here to give the installer a voice and make sure you are equipped with

everything you need to win in this current market environment for our new listeners welcome to the team what's up

fellas what's going on what's going on brother can you With me as always Mr daniel and Jose Gonzalez of Grand Rapids

Michigan today we have a very special guest Vince vince is out of Tell me

where you're from again Vince st clemeni California san Clementi California today's topic for everybody uh the

xmarket demand for expert witness in flooring specifically Vince is an expert

in tile and quality assurance and setting up jobs getting jobs spec he's

got a wealth of knowledge um we really wanted to talk about you know everything

that it takes i mean there's just so much it takes to become an expert installer but there's another level to

this stuff and we we got Vince on to kind of chat through some of that stuff so Vince I'm going to give you the floor

and have you tell us a little bit about yourself for our new viewers um this is going to be a sponsorship

free video so enjoy the content and uh get live in the chat ask questions and

uh let's let's make uh Vince welcomed all right Vince tell us a little bit

about yourself sir yeah appreciate that Paul thanks for thanks for having me on by the way I love the name The Huddle so

uh one thing I I didn't mention to you I actually played college football i was a quarterback and so the huddle is a is a

very special place for me so anytime I even hear the words I got goosebumps so

uh appreciate that uh but I I have a long history in the tilestone industry

uh going on almost 30 years at this point i got a C-54 contractor's license

from the state of California back in 1998 and I came up in fabrication and

installation uh so I cut my teeth real early just getting my hands dirty and

and that was that was a fun ride but I jumped really quickly into the supply side so I got into the manufacturing and

distribution of uh ceramic tile porcelain tile natural stone and related products i've traveled the world over

i've had an international career which is amazing so you were talking about how do you gain that experience to even get

to an expert level uh it might start in installation but you've got to have that

well-rounded you have to understand product you have to understand the supply the logistics where it's coming

from where it can actually go uh where it can be applied and whatnot uh fast

forward in the last decade I've been working with Oceanside Glass Tile uh I

I'm the president of that company i'm a shareholder of that company and we've we've really you know taken that it's a

30-year-old business right when you're in the tile industry or in any industry for that long is you just got to change

right you got to adapt to the market and and you got to grow and that's certainly been my role within that business and

then last year I'm a typical entrepreneur i got way too many things going on uh this past year uh I

purchased ceramic tile and stone consultants from the infamous Donado PMPO uh Donado who is the founder of

that business back in 2002 uh he grew an expert witness forensic tile flooring uh inspection services

business and it's a great business and him and I have co-wrote many different courses that are online uh live courses

that we give at coverings and total solutions plus these types of trade shows uh and we co-wrote a book together

uh that that talks about how to get tile and stone products specified working with architects uh and and then I've

done work for Donado for the last decade him and I off and on um have worked on

expert services together and then this last year you know Donado's just at that point where um yeah he just doesn't want

to run the business anymore and so so I took over the business starting January 1 and really got a running start man

it's uh it's a it's a killer business i love being an expert i love serving on

the organizations and the trade organizations i'm a huge fan of the industry i'm just believer in doing

things right and doing my part to pay that forward so I sit on the national

stone uh natural stone institutees technical committee TCNA handbook committee uh I'm members of NTCA CTDA

we're on the ASMC8 committee and the NCA 108 committee so every So is there

anything that you don't do yeah when I told you when I told you that uh

you know I do too much there's a couple other boards that I sit on on top of that i could keep going

so tell us a bit about the um about the the business that you recently are

taking uh taking over for Donado and the the expert witness side of things what

what kind of trainings when you you say you have written a book is it on that topic specifically

it it's not so it's a mix of the the the book for example is just on it is and it

isn't so we run through what it takes to actually specify or written

specification for tile or for stone or related products so for flooring for example so everything you need to know

to understand how to write a specification and then ultimately if you're on the selling side right if

you're if you're an installer if you're a distributor or a manufacturer how do

you sell your product then and keep that product specified because that's some of

the the the hardest thing that we do is someone likes a product and how do you how do you hold on to that spec right

get it through the end yeah and so um when you're when you're doing the

forensic kind of um thing where where you're you're

serving as an expert witness you said it's a good business can you tell us about that like what is that entail what

do you do there yeah sure so it's anything from I Well I'll start off with

this because it's an easy way to understand it uh our our top client list

you would think that they would be tile companies or even installers it's actually the insurance companies and

it's the law firms that represent these companies they're they're our clients and so there's a couple couple things

that happen one would be your typical claim like a water loss right a a pipe

bust and water goes through the house floods the house and then the insurance company wants to know is there damage to

the tile or the flooring and does it need to be replaced or can it be repaired what's the problem there's fire

loss uh obviously don't wish that on on anybody certainly what's happened recently in California but fire loss is

a big deal too i was recently on a fire loss claim and you know just understanding can that be cleaned does

the tile have does the flooring have to be completely replaced and then we get into a lot of litigated matters right so

there's a lot of construction defect that happens within tile whether you're talking about a shower a floor whatever

it might be uh and you know the general contractor gets involved the subcontractor gets involved and you've

got homeowner and none of them are agreeing right so then it just goes to litigation so the attorneys will will

bring us on to come in as a third party totally objective we can come in and assess the situation write the report on

what our findings are um all of which is based on empirical data so we're measuring things we're taking everything

from slope to moisture readings to you name it and then we want to access uh

standards industry standards sometimes it's just a a standard of practice or standard of care within the industry

that we have to fall back on other times we can allude directly to the TCNA handbook or to the dimensional stone

design uh manual that the NSI puts out and and we can we can site industry

guidelines you know did that installer follow proper guidelines did they follow the specification did they follow the

manufacturer's recommendations and then the last thing we do is around just quality control so sometimes we get to a

point where the recommendation is full replacement and then whether that's a commercial or residential job they want

to ensure that the new installation goes right and and they need help so they

need someone like us to come in and write the spec write the installation guideline and help over oversee the

installation so when you

Oh go ahead sorry I just have a quick question you say um right o oversee and

make sure the installation goes right is that because they just want to be educated on that or are you going to be

their um their information station so that way the installer and whoever they

have back out is is kind of crossing their tees and dotting their eyes

yeah so um I'd say I'd say both right like you know people want to be educated

the installer wants to be educated so sometimes we have the clients that just want to understand better what's going

on other times they throw their hands up like you'll get I was just recently on a

job so I like being on the jobs where just as an example uh there's no attorneys involved there's no insurance

company involved it's just a a it's just a homeowner and an installer and a

general contractor and they're all trying to just work this out and they've all thrown their hands up and said we

don't know what the issue is and we got to get to the root of the issue and then we need someone else to tell us what the

remedy is right so so sometimes it's just yeah I want to be educated i want to understand what's going on um you

know sometimes it can get really vindictive too so I never know to be honest like I never know what I'm

walking into uh and and so we try to get as educated upfront as we possibly can

so a lot of my job ends up being research we got to look over a lot of

documents a lot of photos uh and and looking up standards and looking up a

lot of things before we ever step foot onto a job site do you guys what what's

the difference uh how do you differentiate yourself from a inspector because it sounds like you do some

inspector things and maybe maybe it's it is an inspector but it it seems to me

that Donado and you guys have done done it a little bit different i mean you're

sometimes an inspector will serve as an expert witness as well but uh that

typically um is a little bit different is there is there a difference between uh hiring an

inspector and hiring you guys totally uh it's a great question i love that question too because a lot of times the

inspector is there to just go and document right so a lot of times what you get from an inspector is just a pure

photo report right it's just I got on I know what to look at i I'm going to take

a bunch of photos i'm going to put it in a report and document all this you guys have it there you go but there's not a

whole lot of opinion involved uh what we do is much more comprehensive

so if you look at my report versus an inspector's report they're very

different so we we go to a higher level of research so we're citing industry

guidelines versus an inspector might know enough to reference the TCNA

handbook but he's not going to know the specifics and where to look at in the TCNA handbook to actually site what is

the actual standard that's applied here right the other thing too is we have a

background here's what makes me personally different what makes Donado different so I've been in the Carrera

Corey several times i've been in the Thasos Corey i've been in probably a

dozen different limestone quaries between France and Portugal and Spain

i've been in other marble quaries i understand stone at at a really high level so when I go onto a project and I

can immediately identify what the product is on the floor just as an example or on the wall or whatever the

application you're like "That was cut out of section 14."

I mean if you knew how many times like like I can tell you just in the last six

months I've been on three jobs where you can call me a top expert of the product

that was installed and so when I came back to the client and said "Oh yeah I've been to that Corey not only I've

been to that Corey I spent 14 years selling that product i've I've I've actually specified that product on some

of the largest jobs uh in the country so I know that product like the back of my hand and they start laughing and so then

when they see my report when when the whatever the plaintiff is saying this

product doesn't exist you can't get it i have to replace everything you know etc and I walk in and say "Oh no you can get

that product no problem i know exactly where it comes from i know who to get it from." So that's the difference an

inspector is only going to go in and really just observe uh we're going to go way way deeper than that uh and and our

reports uh reflect that reflect that it sounds like you provide solutions on the

backside not just reporting what may have went wrong or not went wrong but

you're going to provide hey how how do you rectify the situation in a quality

manner and you and I were kind of chatting before the podcast started that

some of that is like you you'll come in and do the quality control write the spec and those types of things uh to

help with quality assurance on the replacement or even if it's a partial replacement or or what have you but

you'll you'll you'll do some of that like that next step that you don't see

inspectors do which is the remediation of the deal like how to how to actually

fix it for long-term uh you know quality you got it you said it perfectly i mean

I was just on I just finished up on a on a project actually locally this one was in San Diego we're all over the country

so I got guys I got I'm lucky because I've got incredible inspectors i got six

of them that um are all around the country and you know we're going to Florida we're going to Tennessee we're

going to Texas uh and we do a lot of jobs in California inherently but uh I

was just on one where that's exactly what I delivered to the client was not

only did I tell them they wanted to understand why right they needed to understand what was going on and why and

the general contractor generally he want he didn't know he he was like I need to know i need to understand what's going on so we don't do this again and then

they wanted a remedy they wanted to know okay well how do we what's what what's the root and then how do we fix it and

so we walked in and said I told them exactly what was going on why it was going on and what to do to fix

it and that's huge because yeah I mean especially if it if it went wrong

beforehand and Daniel is an I mean a really true expert in in sheet vinyl

resilient flooring and moisture and does does a lot of training around that and

and you know we we always like to at the

huddle and and I appreciate what you said early on you know uh we do it's just like a little huddle we get

together once a week and we're talking about the industry's issues uh but we also use a lot of the you know uh uh

analogies from sports on here so that that's where the name comes from um

believing that you know building a great team uh whether it's on inspection or

the actual installation early on is is part of the success of a project um that

being said Daniel I wanted to like tap in on the other flooring side so when

you I know you don't inspect a lot but you do a lot of quality control from the

terms of when you are training people what types of you see I don't see

this type of thing that Vince does in the soft goods world as much i know you

do do you do soft goods or is it just We do i have a guy i have a carpet while it's not my expertise I know enough to

be dangerous right uh and I've written several reports on that but I actually have a certified uh inspector on staff

that that I do subcontract uh and he's been doing that for for Donado for a

number of years and recently with me i' I've personally been on half a dozen projects with him great guy but yeah in

fact today right now he's on a hardwood uh uh inspection uh so yeah we we we do

get involved in that yeah I mean on the on the soft good side with us it's he's

actually Jose is uh certified in carpet inspections and then I think with us

it's just the deconstruction of the projects that we have seen failing and

then I mean we do we go to the GC and we're like hey this is why this is failing and they're like they're like oh

you mean we can't put marker on the floor if you're installing resilient or oh we actually have to you know do

something with this cutback adhesive instead of just trying to go and put a half inch of prep down and it's like man

that stuff's going to come up regardless of what you do unless you either get rid of it or put I mean they got one part

urethanes now that that can go over it but you got to put do something you can't just start patching over it and

think that it's going to be covered yeah yeah i I so often um I've had

flooring inspections done and I own a commercial floor covering company and as

we were talking earlier on I I also found a go Carrera but most of what we

find or what we uh uh come across is

there's a there's a lack of training not that there's a lack of the ability to

train I think the training entities most of them have space in their classes but

getting all of the uh installers specific Specifically when we're talking about

1099 true subcontractors it may work for multiple flooring companies um you know

making sure that there's access to training and that there's a way for them to to

um let me say this the best way to be successful is to be trained right first like you really got to know what you're

doing so often these these inspections come back and it says there's an

installation issue which I would assume a a fairly large uh portion of what you

do falls back into improper installation techniques we found it I've served as an

expert witness in the past um only brought in for a court

case for uh and and I really didn't like it because it was a competitor and I wanted to make sure that I was unbiased

in the deal but it was clear lack of training lack of knowledge on how to

properly install that flooring system and is that what you find as well in

your inspection in your business I should say in your reports are you finding that it's um lack of

quality training or are are you seeing that it's

um let me ask this how often do you find a highly certified guy that had an

installation problem yeah almost never i mean that's the thing is the guy the guys that are doing it right i don't

think I mean I don't know the last time I wouldn't be on a job i mean they're just they're just not having problems i

mean that's you're right here's what I would tell you is what we find you know primarily in tile tile and stone it's

never one thing right it's it's I can't I can't tell you that it's ever just a 100% installation it never is there's

always something else that is is potentially going on and that's what makes tile and stone so complicated

right because take stone for example not all stones can go in every application

right and same with ceramic tile versus porcelain versus a mosaic and then if

you've got something that's got a fiberglass mesh on it if you've got something that uh is dimensional versus

a you know certain size mosaic to large planks to porcelain slabs i could go on

and on like literally they're every year the TCNA handbook or the dimensional

stone design manual has to be updated because we have to accommodate for these

new technologies and these new things not to mention the setting materials i mean the setting materials have gotten

so specific take glass tile for example and tri sizes for different applications i mean it's just

Yeah the adhesives are just they're getting amazing and you know you have as

an installer you got to keep it you got to keep up with that because you have to understand that you can't just everybody

falls back on uh oh yeah I'm just going to use uh 254 platinum right you know

and and that's like the cure all but you can't use that for example on a translucent glass you can't do that

because from batch to batch the color could be different and so now it's going to change the color of the way that that

glass tile looks and and so you have to know that and and these guys to your

point they're not continuously training themselves and updating themselves on the new technology the new adhesives the

new products uh there's a ton of training out there the manufacturers are better at it than ever before in the

industry certainly way better than when I started in the industry so the support level that you're getting from the

manufacturers then also from the trade organizations manufacturers and the distributors are are heavily investing

into the trade organizations nsi the TCNA the NTCA CTDA all these

organizations offer an incredible amount of training educational courses so to me

there's no excuse but I want to add one one last component in California

specifically we have an issue with unlicensed guys and and that's where it

also starts because to get licensed you actually have to get trained right so

you have to go through a an apprenticeship or you have to understand

how to take that exam what's going to be on the exam and and so it's going to

give you a level of training that's absolutely necessary for you to get into that trade so at a bare minimum that's

the place to start and in California we have we have a big issue and and a lot

of times I'm going on these you know smaller residential jobs and I have to

ask the question was the guy licensed or not yeah well we've had a lot of discussions

around licensing on here before and you know if you look at most things

that you're licensed to do the license is required because the resulting damage

uh and and the lack of licensing and flooring I believe I hypothesize greatly

that there's not enough resulting damage that's going to require it across the

nation i mean you get your pockets where it's it's there but I mean whether it's

a driver's license where you could kill somebody because you're driving a 5,000lb missile or you're a plumber

where if you if you don't know how to plum and you're plumbing a high-rise the

resulting damage is not just that your pipe your 50 cent pipe burst it's all

the millions of dollars of damage resulting from it you know if you put a bad tile floor in it's just typically a

bad tile floor unless you're getting into shower systems uh which you know

anything to do with water I think there should be a special license for for waterproofing systems in showers i do

think that could get passed but I don't know how that you know that's where

that's where the when I started go career the whole purpose was like having some some score here that we can that

you can know that somebody is is and and that the not just an expert person like

I'm I'm a flooring expert or you're a flooring expert but the homeowner can have an easy to understand guide as to

whether how how well that person's um uh skill level is where where is their

skill level but licensing's been a a thing that's been talked about forever

but it's just never caught wind outside California and a few other very sparse

spots which is really super weird for me is it is it called the C-15

what's that licensed in California is it called the C-15 so it's a

C-54 is what's required for ceramic mosaic tile slabs uh there's a masonry

there's a separate masonry license that you can get but the industry utilizes the C-54 license okay so yeah no it

categorize it here i've got ceramic tile C-54 flooring installer carpet vinyl

wood uh LBT laminate C15 so even even soft surface is required to

carry a license yeah say that again

sorry can can you hear me at all you just got to got to talk right into it required to carry a license who is

soft soft surface goods yeah so it is so in the state of California state of

California is really interesting that way so you know I think Paul you you said it perfectly right that that I I'm

not sure that for sure other states are not as rigid maybe New York uh but uh

state of California is interesting so if you're going to perform in any trade uh if you're going to perform a job that is

over $500 and or or requires more than one person right you're required to

carry uh the appropriate trade license

so it's true of soft surfaces too now I don't soft surface is a different designation but uh but uh yeah you're

absolutely required to carry it and then in California it comes with criminal charges uh some some of which can be

felony uh so they they have they have different misdemeanor but they also have felony charges believe it or not so if

you're operating for example the example would be if you're using someone else's so Jose if you have a license let's say

you've got a C-54 and I don't and I contract contract with Paul under your

license then that's that's considered fraud essentially because I'm using your

license and I'm an unlicensed guy and that can be a felony charge so California California is super serious

about it super serious about it yeah we have a comment and I I think this is true on just about anything but guy says

Jason says he's seen knucklehead licensed guys there in Cali and and he's seen superior installers that are not

licensed i think that um I wonder what would keep somebody from being licensed

if they've taken all the courses to do so is it money is the are the licenses

expensive or are they overbearing in some manner they're not you know you can get it in English and Spanish you can

prepare for it in English and in Spanish even courses uh the CSLB offers free

free courses and training uh to take the exam but you can pay for courses as well

and it's $150 annually to maintain your license i've had mine since 1998 jason's

right though by the way so again just because you can I mean think of doctors right or or a vehicle license right i

mean with a lot of knuckleheads on the road not every not every doctor should be a doctor right so yeah I I think the

same absolutely goes for a tile installation so I didn't by any means

just to clarify say that having a license and getting a license is enough

um Paul I think you said it i mean continuous training is absolutely

necessary for you to uh be on the up and up and continue to uh grow and get

better at what you do there's no question and as the technology changes with adhesives and product and

application and things like that you've got to you've got to stay informed and

be able to adapt with that that growing market i think that's where it's really important and and Daniel can chime in

here but uh in the in in any of the flooring uh

categories is staying up to date like getting we always say getting involved

but understanding the different um the different uh thin sets or grouts and and

how to utilize them i know that there was a hell of a big problem with urethane grouts early on and

um it was there was not enough training on them they everybody thought they were just so super easy compared to a to an

epoxy that they they went and and install them and and then they'd have haze everywhere they couldn't get off

they're windexing as left and right they're trying to get the you know I

eventually it started to solve itself as people got more um experienced with it

but as a homeowner or or a business owner that has that product I didn't want you to learn on my job you know I I

wanted you to get the training that was necessary and and a lot of times a new product comes out and the training lags

behind it's too far lagging to you know what I mean that's right um and so a

product will come out for a while click floor i mean it took Wilson Art out of business in the flooring industry when

they came out with their solid core and the the tongues were snapping everywhere uh part of that was not understanding

that it's not uh void of the necessary floor prep and when those floors were

installed on flat perfectly flat floors they didn't have that problem but you

know you start getting that flex and the tongue would break off and then you had

problems throughout a project and I actually have experience with that um myself back in early two mid 2000s I'd

say but yeah it's like the the products come out and the training for those

products lag enough that there's a pretty high uh failure or problem rate i

won't say failure but issues with that new product but you do have to stay up on it whether it's new thin sets or

you're putting gauge porcelain panels up and what trials to use and the all of

that stuff really really matters and that's why here on the huddle we're we're huge proponents of getting trained i know I was going to tag Daniel in here

and Jose to talk about you know all of the little tricks and techniques and new things you've you've seen over the last

10 years in just sheet vinyl and heat welding and uh cold welding and all these things just the tooling in general

i mean the things that you can use in order to cut the the time of the install down that people just I've I've seen

trainings where they're still not using this stuff and it's like man you're teaching them with this old stuff and

like things could go just so much better if you just upgrade some tools

yeah yeah and that's another that's same as the new product is a new tool goes out but how to use that

thing is sometimes lacking i would argue I would just argue this is

that there's never been an easier way to do it at this point and let me just give

you an example so several years ago at this point one of the things that we

developed at Oceanside Glass is our mosaic is a paperface mosaic so that you

can get 100% contact on the back of the mosaic it is the better way versus

fiberglass mesh and uh some guys are resistant to that even though it's

actually an easier installation and you're guaranteed to have bond versus

what you deal with with fiberglass mesh so that's not even what I'm getting at so what we did is on the paperface we

printed installation instructions on the paperface then we put a QR code on the

paper so that you could download the video that shows you how to install the

and they still install it backwards like it's it's in it's insanity like

when I get the call I'm literally like include You had to include the device too brother

you're right Jose hey next time I'm going to throw And by the way an iPhone

if that wasn't enough we actually print we print our install guide and that goes

in the goes in with the bill of lighting in every

every Are they installing paper down still is that what you're You know I

think the biggest problem we found with Oceanside Glass because we've installed it is the the amount of they they have

to you have to be really cognizant of your trials and trial size because you

can go if you're not and you're not using the proper trial size you have a grouted product with thin set at the end

of the day and that has been that we had a problem with that where it was pretty

much routed with thin set because he used a large notch trial or larger notch

trial trying to build it out well you don't know what's going on behind there you don't see it that's the that's the

harder part but if you're using the right tri size it won't

fail your grout joints up and uh you're you know like we told our guy back then

when that happened it's been years ago but like it's better to to use a backer

board to to to flush it out this was an accent a one foot accent in bathrooms on

a 12 x 24 tile right and so you got a thinner product versus a a thicker

product and they tried to to float it out with inset as opposed to either preflotating it with a ledger like a

gauge board or uh you know putting up something that would uh make that gap up

but yeah I remember seeing that distinctively and it was like grouted with then say all you can do is take it

out i mean you're you have no choice at that point well you know and I'd say this like you know again with with

Oceanside Glass is that we know it's a complicated product to install like we'll never try to argue otherwise which

is the why we go to so much trouble to make sure that we make all of our

install guides as easily accessible as possible so the major point that I was

trying to make was it's never been easier to access information on how to

install this stuff or what tool to use or whether or not the product should even be installed in that application

and it it's it's easy to get get the info that you want in my opinion there's

little to no excuse uh to to not know i mean you know how many times you see how many video how

many YouTube videos have you watched to do some project i mean I Oh yeah it's

it's so easy so don't even look at my install guide just go on YouTube well YouTube is a a fantastic place get a

reference but it doesn't uh hand skills you have to get with with practice the

information is there though i mean just look at the the publications the trade publications they're all out there

there's great articles in there i mean that's where I started learning a bunch of stuff and then you just keep on going

from there but in your case I mean you're giving them the instructions three times before they even install it

there's no you know but at the end of the day that does that still does not take away from train knowing how to do

it it's just like when you start talking about you could watch someone on YouTube

do a flat beef carpet or something and you ain't going to be able to just like you got to have these skills too yeah

and and that's I was talking to someone um someone from a a community college was in here last week and I was telling

her I said she was asking me about the training and I said you know I like to do more hands-on stuff especially in the

trades because that's what we do like you're not learning unless you're working with these cuz you can I can

explain something to you all day and until you start doing it you'll never get it i agree yeah there's there's a

there's a big piece of of using your hands which where you start to

get you can get some knowledge online like our algorithm for go career does

give credit for online courses but it doesn't it's not the same weight in our

algorithm as putting your hands on it and then being tested you know um those

types of deals are so uh that's why like we do uh kind of a Facebook uh failures

or follyies or whatever we'll we'll we'll pull up some YouTubers doing stuff

and try to keep it lighthearted not really trying to dog on anybody but there's still a reason why there's

professional installers and most of the products even the DIY products should be installed by by a professional and we

push that a lot even even though it says that you know you can do it yourself you

can probably like can you probably that

part you can probably do it's all the other crap that goes into a proper installation

uh that that you know really matter to put your hands on

it angles and cuts i went to a job today that we're we're bidding a an assisted

living and I I kid you not it's this LVT

was on an angle but it come to a door jam that's on a you know so it's going in at an angle and the they said to hell

with it we're just going to fill all that with like like like this you know and so having

somebody who's skilled with their hands is still the the first requirement then

you can watch YouTube videos because you also can figure out which ones are BS and which ones can really help you with

your install and I think what set us apart um like I mean even now is that if

I were to get your that material I would get it and then play with it in the warehouse before I even take it on a job

site gotta do mock it up today we just had it today like nobody knows about

this product it's not it doesn't have legs yet but I don't want to test it on a job i don't want to test it with the

installers let's get our hands wet or get our feet wet here at the shop and do a mockup well and that comes a lot from

the the you know heat welding world we don't I don't care what job I've ever been on that's what I kind of

specialized in was Flash Cove Heat Weld Products i don't I even if I've welded

before I do not start welding a job until I've ran you know practice runs on

the product partially because you never know the different welders and the heating elements and how hot the welder

is running so you got to figure that out but it's also the product itself even if I've installed it thousands of yards of

medentech I'm still going to te run some practice welds and and do that for a

time so that's kind of inherent in the resilient world I think that gets you guys out there experimenting with stuff

every time you get something new that's where you get um like the sports analogy from too right they say you know uh an

amateur will do it until they don't get it wrong but a professional is that what

it is they'll do it until they get it right but a professional will do it until they don't get it wrong yeah and

that's a big part that is with the dynamite

right there you know a lot of the um we talk about floor prep a lot here because

that's the piece that always gets forgotten and I'm sure in the ceramic tile world you guys have uh a similar uh

problem how many projects Vince have you been on where um a floor fails say a

tile floor fails but it wasn't the thin set or the tile it was the floor prep

underneath the substrate yeah it's a lot of them a lot of them have issues with

the substrate well we run into We run into a couple of things um one is is they're not putting oftentimes the

proper uh crack isolation membranes down on a concrete uh substrate for example

uh movement joints is is probably one of the biggest issues so you know that

you're going to get that contra contraction and expansion you can't avoid it right uh so depending on the

area so if you're not if you're not cutting perimeter joints or you're not putting in movement joints and allowing

that flex right you got to put on you can't hard grout it right because that's a cementitious

uh adhesive grout is and so there's no flex so you've got to use uh you got to use a sealant and you got to allow for

movement and and that's one of the biggest issues that that occur because you've got a control joint and I'm

primarily talking about concrete substrate but you know you got a control joint and if you're not if you're not

properly uh preparing for that you're you're going to have cracks you're gonna have issues you know and then um the

other thing that happens is is uh too much thin set so thin set mortar uh a

ton of shrinkage when there's too much of it so they I I think I want to say TCA handbook says about quarter inch

depending on the application some applications only 332 of an inch of thin set so like you were talking about

earlier Paul you got to build that up whatever if you're talking about a floor vertical surface you got to build that

up somehow mud you know mud set whatever it is but point being is like what we

run into which I I've run into twice now in the last week is you got like 3/4 of

an inch or an inch of pure thin set and so yeah I think that's also uh just to

throw something out there it's a product again what's the difference between thin set mortar medium bed

mortar mud setting these these are things the like trying to build a thin

set it's called thin set for a reason trying to build that up 3/4 of an inch

and it not being a medium bed mortar or something of that nature or a mudbed

yeah i mean those are the two those are the two to use i mean that's it like you use a medium bed mortar use a mudbed uh

and then that's why it's called thin set exactly like just you know I guess it's

just not intuitive enough well it's in the name but I I think it's one of those

it's like a Kleenex you know you just start to get it like it's it's it's a

mortar and it it can go as thick as you want we've we've seen that as well where

you're building it up and a lot of times it never actually cures out properly to that thickness and uh natural stone in

particular I've seen where there's holes like where the there's a crack and the

product just sinks down and there's mortar underneath all of it but it's just got compressed because it never

really cured i mean there's all kinds of problems when you start trying to use a product that's not really intended for

that that use coverage coverage is another issue right so you guys have heard that before so you you know if you

if you're only getting you know I think on large format for example uh 80% is

required i mean really really you want in most specifications they're asking for 100% which I think is it's

unreasonable you're never going to get 100% coverage right but the TCA handbook says 95% you know so on you know typical

tile installation they want 95% coverage because you need the contact you got to have the bond especially if you're going

to go vertical you know if you're going to go vertical we're on a lot of projects with exterior veneer and you've

got porcelain tile that's falling off the building and and you know it's really dangerous it's super super risky

at that point and you know these guys aren't aren't getting full contact and you're not getting that that bond that

you need for that installation to be super tight well that's why you go to the the videos on Facebook and stuff

where they're just spot bonding everything h Yeah i I I thought a a good

thing to bring up would be we're talking about coverage and DIY and the uh you

know the the big push on leveling systems and and how often that has

caused the failure because you don't you know they didn't use enough thin set or they

didn't have proper whether it was not mixed correctly or they went into it too

dry or whatever and they use a a leveling system and it pulls it off the mortar bed um how much of that have you

ran across yeah absolutely we see that too you know and and then they're not

doing it in the right order uh believe it or not so we see you know they don't read the manufacturer's directions on

okay well if I'm going to include a crack isolation or anti-fraracture membrane and then I'm going to go

self-leveling or whatever it is right so well believe it or not we show up and um

it's not in the right order or the two products can't be used with each other so you got to go all you you you want to

try to stick with the single source manufacturer you shouldn't mix and match

as much as you can help it uh so you you stick with a single source usually if

you stick with the single source manufacturer of the setting goods there's a warranty attached to it so you

always want to you want to and then you just follow their recommendations in terms of because they'll explicitly tell

you use this with this cohesive and and

that and I just they're not reading you know I think some of these installers they're just used to using their regular

products or they're talking to the wrong person or whoever it is and uh they're not doing their own diligence to

understand what they should be using well some old-timers are used to just a

couple of products too and now you got this plethora of products that are like

you know which which one do I use and again I getting product knowledge along

with your hand skills is especially on that that hard tile side right because

coming from the soft good side we're like "All right I'm using this uh this material so I'm going to use their

adhesive." But on the hard tile side no one has their own stuff so it's like well what am I going to use and then

what what's the system I'm going to use but like you said if you if you all it takes is a little bit of research and

you're like oh if I use this system I get a 5year warranty if I use this one I'll get a 10-year warranty if I use

this one it's a lifetime so it's all in in how much you want to spend on something and then when you're when

you're bidding it's a it's a different story because it's like what are the

other guys gonna be using specs that that that make you use different products sometimes and you're like ah uh

even even uh when you start talking about writing specifications and stuff

and you were talking about expansion joints earlier one of the things that you will go to battle with designers

with is movement joints i mean you can get they'll let you get away with some soft

joints but you start wanting to put a true expansion joint in and they're like "That's too ugly." And for this lobby

and I'm like "Well you got a 60 foot span we have to put true expansion

joints in." Yep yeah you're you're 100% right and and and by the way it's the

TCA handbook is very explicit about this is that it's actually the architect that should specify where the movement joints

go and and what movement joints to put in and if it doesn't exist in a specification then then the installer

should submit an RFI right uh for for understanding where the architect wants

the movement joints to go in right it has to go that's a good point for the audience like you should lean on the

architect and the the the designer but specifically the architect to give you

that guidance on where to put the joints so often we get asked for shop drawings

that show where they go and they want us to decide we give them the the the

and you know I I can't tell you that we haven't just given them and we have uh we try to follow the the the u the

guidelines um but often they're like well can you move this one over here because we don't

it's so aesthetics driven it is that it's that's where the problem comes in

it's like they don't want this there but that's where it needs to be because you

have an actual building control joint there i can't like move it five foot to

the right just because it's going to look better it has to be where it has to

be some right that's when you tell them you might as well just not put one if you want me to move it there

and you know because of the aesthetics and and the performance uh portion of it they literally have people are create

have created businesses based off of creating uh transitions to insert and different ways to to use the design

aspect as uh like we have so many samples here i mean we'll probably never use you know 90% of what we have here

but we have them just in case it's just it has to be there

maybe maybe that should be a podcast maybe we should talk about that understanding how to look for an issue for Yeah

it is a topic in and of itself Jose i think you're totally right i mean a couple of things that we've talked about

are are literal topics in and of themselves that we could probably go on for for for a while about but they're

you know they're all combined they're they're all issues and we run in I mean just going back to the I think the root

of what you were saying Paul at the beginning um it it is we run into all of

those things and it's rooted in training i mean you can't get away from it right

and licensing it certainly is a part of that but that ongoing training is what's

so important to keep up with that and then as you brought up something that I heard you say that I thought was was

astute is that is that often times the training is lagging with the technology

as it gets released into the industry so with that said knowing that's the case

you've got to get with the manufacturer if you're unsure about a product or if there's something new that you've heard of or whatever it is the manufacturers

most have uh written installation guides they have specifications they have the

information to provide to you to help you do it right and then like like

Daniel and Jose you guys were saying is mock-ups right i mean you just then you can't just rely on that you've never

done it before so mock it up right that's what you got to do so you said

something right there you know the manufacturers have that information they do the training and we talk all the time

about relationships with reps and that's where it really comes in handy to where they're just a text or a phone call away

and it's like "Hey man I got this going on what do you recommend?" And then we

he quoted a project not too long ago and then you know we we just had lunch with our Utine rep today and then he's like

"Yeah this stuff is coming over it's not even released in the US yet this is what you can use on that and I'll get you

some." Yep yeah a lot of times we did an exterior system I told you guys about

but um did an exterior system that that Artex uh came up with and here in the

Midwest you know porcelain pavers are pretty popular or gaining popularity but

hardscape guys are installing it like they install flagstones and putting it

on gravel beds or putting it on a sand bed and then polymer sanding it and and

the homeowners are expecting that to last and last about 3 days with polyatric sand and especially when you

start talking about pool decks we just did a really nice big pool deck with 24x48 tile with that with Ardex's um

exterior A14 drainage mat system um but

they'll go out there with you we had the Artex technical guy there with us the entire project making sure that we're

doing the processes in fact we had to we had to change on one area to a different

system and so leveraging your technical reps and leveraging those people that's

it that's that's just as important when a product comes out because that's a that was a new product i found I seen it

at a Fuse conference because I'm a member of Fuse and I was like that's what I need for this job yeah well the

training for that hadn't there's no training for that yet and and making sure that it's done right and that you

actually get the drainage you need and there's a lot that goes into that that would take a whole another podcast but

you know that's what I think Danielle's saying is like having the relationship

with your reps and leveraging them and um you know also getting involved with

the industry and and talking to guys like you Vince and joining the huddle and and listening and learning that's it

when you brought up Fuse Alliance right and I think that's you know being a member of Fuse or you know being a

member of NTCA or you know any of those type of organizations right they the

trade organizations are incredible and they just keep getting better and better with the information they're putting out and the courses and the training that

they make available to you so no and then you go to Fuse Alliance i was there as well and you know you get to you get

to see some of the new product right there firsthand like you just said you know then next thing you know you're

you're you're using it uh on a project and so yeah you got to coverings is

coming up next week right I mean you know it's it's another place it's a venue to make sure that you're out in

front of all the new trends and any type of new products that are coming out yeah

and I think it's just important for installers to get involved more than just the flooring companies you know the

the guys that are dealing with the architects and the general contractors winning the bids and then either giving having a their

in-house crew do that their W2 employees do it because we have W2 installers as

well as subcontractors and um those subcontractors you can't force them to

do certain trainings you can't you know you don't it's not the same and so I

encourage all the subs like if you are performing work getting involved and

getting trained is like paramount to your success agree totally agree all right well we've

come up at the end of the podcast here vince thank you so much for joining us if you'll stay on the uh stay on after

we u uh leave the live stream here i want to thank our audience for getting

involved and and commenting and and asking questions we didn't get to all of

them but uh it was it was a pleasure having you Vince and your knowledge get

involved guys get out there uh Vince do some plugging for your uh platforms and

where people can find you and and and work with you and if they need yeah we

talked a little bit about Oceanside Glass so that's just glasstile.com super simple uh and then ceramic tile and

stone consultants really simple ctasc.com and all the information you

want we actually have some free resources on there too by the way so uh there's an FAQ where if you got a lot of

questions we've got a platform where you can ask questions about stuff that's going on and then certainly that's a

great way to get a hold of me if you're looking for uh quality control services or or forensic type services awesome

well thanks for joining us today Vince Jose awesome job thank you so much and

uh to our audience we'll catch you guys next week