When a flooring installation fails, who's responsible, how is it determined, and what can the industry learn from it?
In this episode of The Huddle, Daniel and Jose Gonzalez are joined by Kevin Keefe, Dave Garden, Scott Bohaker, Andy McWilliams, and Kenneth Jones for an insightful conversation about flooring failures, inspections, and claims.
The crew dives into the role inspectors play in the flooring industry, how flooring claims are evaluated, and the importance of education, experience, and industry standards when determining what went wrong. They also explore what truly qualifies someone to be an educated, credible inspector and why getting to the root of a flooring failure matters for everyone involved.
From installers and contractors to manufacturers and inspectors, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on accountability, professional standards, and how the industry can continue to improve.
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[music] What's up everyone? Welcome to the huddle. We're having a little bit of uh
technical difficulties as we do every week, but uh we appreciate everyone joining. Uh we
do have a a long list of guests today and I appreciate these guys coming on. But again, welcome to the huddle. This
what your uh weekly your weekly talk show for forward progress in the Florida
career. Right. The idea is to find success rather than failures.
And then um we'll give it a second everyone to kind of get people to log on for a minute.
Start going around with introductions. Yeah. I don't know what your screen looks
like, Daniel, but I'm just going to go ahead and start in my in the top top
left over here with Mr. uh Kenneth Jones. give us an introduction a little bit
about yourself about yourself. Uh good afternoon, gentlemen. Uh CCI
flooring inspections and training services. Uh based out of Michigan, never in Michigan. Nationwide services,
flooring claims, uh direct causation, lab testing, and consulting services. So
this is what we do every day, all day, 24/7.
Awesome. Mr. Randy Randy. Hey, Andy McWills. I work for Nales
Innovative Flooring. We are We are a vinyl manufacturer. I'm senior technical manager for the manufacturer. Uh have a
background in flooring installation. Mr. Keefe. Kevin Keefe, director of
technical services, QEP Roberts, the company that's leading the way in innovation.
Short and sweet. Yeah, Mr. Bohacker. Uh, Scott Boacaker with Bowont Flooring
and NFCT. Uh, we are commercial flooring installation company and we do flooring
inspections all across the country. And Mr.
I'm with Garden Consulting Services, also CFI NFCs,
based out of Michigan, Ohio. And it looks like you're just flying in today, right? That's the That's the word
that I got. So, thank you for for joining on the on the run. It is.
And then as always, as always, Daniel and myself, we are Mr. missing Mr. Paul today.
He's got a He's in still in Canadia. He was in charge of his own schedule
and this is what happens. Just so you guys know.
Well, today um today the topic is when flooring fails, what can the
industry learn? Um, and I know that's kind of a broad broad topic for everyone to talk about, but it does open the
doors uh for us to talk about a few things leading up to um the reason and
the positions that you guys all hold in the industry. Um, and instead of bombarding it with a bunch of questions
like I did before we started the live stream, uh, we'll just go ahead and and
start and and that order that we went in, we can stick to that order for from introductions to guys to kind of keep everything a little bit clean because we
do have a lot of guests today. Um, but we'll start it like that and then let the conversation evolve into a into a
natural fireside chat, if you will. Um but
one of the the main things is uh the importance
let's let's just go let's rewind real quick because I kind of shut a lot of things off and I confused myself earlier but um the um
when flooring fails what can we learn what can we do are we
learning anything and I want to start with that because that's going to kind of be the overarching topic uh that's
going to tie all these subtopics together that I know are going to pop up today. Um so flooring fails. What can we do?
What have we learned? Have we learned Mr. Jones?
Well, what you learn is you learn based on from a technical perspective
what works and what doesn't work and if it's failed, where did it fail? So, are
we are we teaching and training and learning on what actually is the
causation of the failure? And I think I think there's everybody here that's on
this podcast and a few that probably couldn't make it or listening would all agree that, you know, we want to hold
everybody accountable. We want to hold the installers beyond accountable. We want to hold the consumer accountable.
We want to hold the vendor partner accountable. And it's a delicate balance. Uh you know, you're like a
light switch in this business. You're you're you feel like an umpire, right? It's a ball or a strike. And and and
really there is a while a lot of people just think we just drive around in a car like Dave's doing right now and take
pictures and go home and drink champagne and it just ain't that easy, right? There's a lot that goes into this and uh
it's a delicate balance. A lot of people aren't learning a lot. They don't get copies of records. the the training is
under I would say under scrutiny at this point and we have a an older age of
installers that are getting out of the industry on a
percentage basis and the percentage of the influx of the new people coming in
they're just kind of utilizing them and overlapping and and we've got a lot of jobs that can't be filled. There's
roughly six to 7,000 jobs coming up next year. I don't know about you, but we
don't have 500 new inspectors that are qualified. That's coming up next year. And we surely don't have 6,000 qualified
[snorts] installers to put in um Navalis flooring or Kevin's glue or, you know, Scott
doesn't there's not 10 of Scots running around putting this in or heat welding from Daniels. So, you know, how are we
going to replace the people that are doing what they're doing? Um, so it is a
delicate balance right now and it and and there is a lot going on.
What do you got on that Andy? You want to add to that? I mean, I I agree with that. I think I think one of the things that I I want to
say is, you know, I think we need to address the issue with the ones we have though, right? So, um,
more education, more trainings for for inspectors, uh, longer trainings, uh,
more requirements for inspectors, um, to be able to perform those inspections on
on those categories of flooring, right? Um, and I'm not just harping on inspectors. I mean, more trainings for installers, longer training for
installers. I mean, I'll be the first to tell you, I do not believe that a two-day course gives anybody the right
to call themselves a certified flooring installer, right? Um, I believe it should be a lot longer than that. But,
of course, you know, we have to deal with scheduling and, you know, guys got to make money as well. So, I mean, there's there's a fine balance between
that. Um, but, you know, starting with the people that are already doing it and and making sure that they understand
what their what their job is going into an inspection, right? All right. And I'm going to harp on inspections because,
you know, that's kind of the name of this show today. Um, inspectors have to be better trained. Uh, and they have to
understand what their job is when they go to a project. Their job is to collect
information to gather facts and present facts of that project, right? So they
bring back a report, it has to be factualbased information and not opinions in the control.
And that's why I popped up Rollins comment right there too because it tied right into what you you were talking about. How do you hold
an inspector accountable if he doesn't give a factual report 100%.
Well, and then to to piggy back off what Van said too, and this could also go to
the rest of the guys is in in your experience and everybody's experience, does does an installation
background help a an inspector be better at what they're doing? Does it help with understanding the processes?
is understanding the process and procedures of the installation and the pitfalls help inspectors with that
information and to be more knowledgeable to explore other ideas or is it too
structured of of a process for an inspection to to factor that in?
I mean I think it's very important Kevin you was going to speak up. I think it's very important to have an installation background. I don't think it's a I don't
think it's should be an absolute requirement. I mean there is you know other parts of the industry where you
gain knowledge in flooring installation uh you know on on sales side on you know
um manufacturing sides and things like that where you you can you know take the classes and you know become an
inspector. Um but that installation experience definitely
is big when it comes to an inspector. You at least have to have a knowledge of how to install floors. Even if you're
not an installer, you at least have to have know how it goes in. Yeah.
Yeah. Mr. Kev, you've been patiently waiting, Brad. He's smiling at that. You're ready to go. Well, I mean, it would be nice, right,
if they have an installation backward around and uh it's definitely needed to have knowledge of the installation.
Unfortunately, I think nowadays most of these inspectors out there are just
looking for uh installation failures. Half of these inspectors out there
aren't looking or doing the right tests to actually find out why these jobs are failing. Uh it's easy to blame,
especially with a lack of knowledge. It's easy to blame an installer. We all you got to do is read the uh
manufacturing specifications. If it says it needs a quarter inch expansion gap and it's slightly under,
you know, next thing you know, the installer's getting blamed, right? I think what we need to do is back up and
talk about when a fail when a when a flooring fails, what's the actual process that's needed and where does
that start? Right? So, you know, for a lot of our listeners out here, they might not have dealt with claims before.
Everybody on this call right now eats and breathes uh claims, right? So, I
think we need to talk about where it starts, what's the process, what are the
chances of that being taken care of properly. Um, I mean, there's so many things that goes into this, right? And
let's start where the claim happens at. It happens with the consumer usually. Um, commercial projects, it might start
before that. Uh, you know, but then where does that consumer reach out to,
right? So, the first call goes to the to to the installation company. Then the installation company starts going
through and looking at all the products used and what that claim initially may be may be and they'll direct it to the
manufacturer. Then the manufacturer then has to justify whether or not this is a claim to even begin with. Uh I mean I
know I get a lot of calls about uh stuff that has nothing to do with glue, but they you know they just figure glue is
the you know the the one thing that's supposed to hold these floors all together. Um we also need to discuss we
also need to discuss uh you know cleaning habits and and and care and
maintenance and and who's responsible for that to for that knowledge to be given to the consumer. Uh you have no
idea how many residential homes I walk into where the where the customer is like, "Well, I had no idea I wasn't
supposed to do that. I I had no idea I wasn't supposed to clean my floor with bleach. I had no idea." You know what I
mean? So, I mean, there's so many things to dive into with this, but I mean,
tongue, brother. So, you know, I mean, if we're just talking about what the uh problems I
see, right? I mean, it everybody's got a hand in the problem, right? Everybody's
got a hand in it. Everybody's responsible. And it's not about passing the blame. It's about moving forward and trying to
figure out the solutions to make a better system. Right? The system's broken. I'm going to say it right now.
The system's the system's broken. Yeah. Go ahead.
So, the question was, what have we learned? Right. That was
that was the starting question. This is turning into we learned a lot. So, all right. Well, one of the one of the
biggest things I've I've seen is we're not qualifying the customers for the product they're putting in their house.
We're not we're not we're setting the installers up to fail before they even
get to the job site by not qualifying a job site for the product.
Who would be responsible for that? We learned that the there's a short list of qualifications that are required in
order for a first contact. the very first contact that that you're
right when you say it's an industrywide problem. It starts from the person that first visits the job site.
All right. Unfortunately, that's that's the last person involved in a claim, right?
I mean, well, that's that's what I've learned. I'm telling you,
yeah, I've learned the system's broken, right? The system's broken. We're we're
we're calling inspectors that have gotten a class on on on their computer sitting at home with no uh verified uh
past experience whatsoever. Um I don't think that's right to send a guy like that out to go look at a job of a guy of
like Andy's caliber. Imagine Andy doing a job and a floor fails and some guy just comes out that says, "Hey, I just
got my inspector's license last weekend in a two-day online class. Uh thought it would be fun." Right? Uh
there's so many issues here. I like I don't even know where to begin. Well, let me let me and I'm going to
make a slight joke, but Kevin, I want to know where you're finding these inspectors that are blaming it all on installers because I'd like to meet some
of them and use them because every inspector that I commission tries to have this big aha moment that he's got
the manufacturer, you know, and it's a it's a manufacturing issue and we're going to, you know, try to blame it on
the installer. I I've read, all jokes aside, I would never use anybody that's biased in one way or the other. I want a factual inspection
report, but absolutely, you know, I see it from the other side. It's always they go on site, they measure gaps, and all of a sudden it's a
dimensional stability issue because they have a way to test that on site. And I I feel I I feel that I employ some
of the best inspectors in the country. But it was uh it was hard it was hard to find those individuals. And that wasn't
uh that was through a process of elimination of having a lot of bad ones, right? I' I've I've read reports where
the manufacturer has been blamed, but not one test on the manufacturing product has ever been done. How did you
get to that conclusion? Well, I eliminated environmental. I eliminated uh installation. No, you didn't. No, you
didn't. Yeah. Right. The environmental conditions change throughout the year. you know, it
can change the building care of the building. Uh, it can the installation.
There's only so many things you can check without actually ripping these floors apart 100% and and and starting
from from the bottom up. So, uh, what I like to see is more inspectors doing
tests that actually verify or or eliminate the actual issues of the
flooring, you know, and that are related to the claim that are related to the claim.
Yeah, that's another that's another great point. Yeah. We don't want people, as Bruce
Gentry says, going on a booger hunt trying to find things that are wrong. And I'll
steal some lines from my wife, Tammy. There's there's some things that basically
we need to look for as inspectors. How the there's four things that can cause a
floor to misbehave. Basically, how it's manufactured, how it's installed, how
it's maintained, and the environment in which it lives in. And I think as inspectors, if we stick to those basics,
we can't obviously go, okay, well, I can't find anything installation wrong with this, so this is definitely Andy's
fault. So, I got a question I want to throw in there for for you guys because based off
of everything that everyone's saying, it all comes down to the the same thing. It's it's just a lack of initial
knowledge from the get. The information is missing or information was never was
never given. Um and and you're right, that's a setup for failure as an installer and that's a a setup for for
potential bias as an inspector. And if if you guys are going to a project and
the first bit of information that you asked for is not available as in what
were the moisture readings, what was uh the ambient temperature, what was the slab temp, what was the the moisture
readings in the the wood substrate. If you start with those those as the basis of information, what does that do
to the rest of that project from then on out? How is this supposed to be viewed
in order to find or in order to submit a successful document?
There's a lot of pieces that get included in it because we can run down the installation instructions and
generally speaking very early in any installation instruction is moisture testing for most products. So a lot of
the time we can cross that off right away because usually the answer I get
when I ask the question was any moisture testing conducted it's usually a yes and
when I ask for documentation there isn't any or there's just a flatout no. Now that's not necessarily caused to deny
the claim obviously because if it's not a moisture related claim I don't need to go down that route at all. There's
usually a lot of other things on the list of things that we're checking for that will
cause a floor to misbehave or fail. Yeah.
And and you know, when we look at, you know, and I I harp on vinyl because that's what I do now. And you know, the
it to me, you have to show you you have to go in and look at every possible
scenario. And there's things that, you know, you're not going to be able to find on site. You know, was the was the
HVAC on during the installation. A verbal yes. I get that every single
time. I can't tell you how many times I get a verbal yes. I'll tell you a quick story. I was told an entire apartment
complex had HBAC's full-time. So, I went down to inspect and most of the time when they're doing renovations in
apartments, the construction to uh the GC will take one of the units and make it into his office.
So again, I was told verbally that all the HVAC was on, all the power was
on, and all the units before installation. So I go into the office and they had me inspect that area first.
And I'm down pulling a plank up as you should during a glue down inspection to check the bed of adhesive and to check
the substrate. And I just happened to look up at the wall. And on the wall was a list of all the units that didn't have
power yet. and it had dates for all the units that
had power turned on. And I just snapped a picture of it, took it back with me and was able to look and correlate that
there was no power or HVAC on during the installation of our product in there. So those verbal yeses are never really
accurate, you know, because you got to think, you're going in and you're fighting against somebody that does not want to lose this battle, right? and
they either whether or not they've read the instructions or just whatever they've done, they're trying to make it look like they did everything right. Did
you use the right adhesive? Did you roll it? Yes. They don't know. They don't understand that we can tell whether or
not they rolled it just by pulling up one plank. So, that's why I'm always I I always harp on inspectors when I get an
inspection report and there's not one picture of the substrate. I got to and that this is glue down. I don't expect people to pull locking mechanisms apart.
I understand that. But on a glue down project, there is zero reason why I should get an inspection report that has
an opinion-based conclusion in it that says it's the it's a dimensional stability issue due to unbalanced layers
in the in the product. Um, with no adhesive [laughter] damage in it, right?
Because I'll just tell you, we don't have a magic layer balancing machine at the office or at the manufacturing
facility where we balance our layers, right? It's a core, a print film, a wear layer, and a coating. Right? Most of the
time it's the same thickness of core with different thicknesses of wear layers. So if it was a unbal or it's a
balancing issue with different thicknesses of wear layers like a certain gentleman likes to put in his articles, then we would definitely have
issues with all of those products, right? So when you walk into a place and there's gapping in a floor and you
automatically go to, oh well, I measured it and it's shorter than what it's advertised, so that's a dimensional stability issue. That's wrong. That's
not the way to do it. And in my in my opinion, that is a head hunt for the manufacturer.
And I'm I stand up for both. Now, I'm an installer and I stand up for both. And I don't want you to go in head hunting for the installer either. But we got to come
together here as as as a group, right? We're hiring inspectors to do a professional job. And we're not getting
that professionalism at the end of the day. So, we do have a couple comments here, too, right? So, Jose and Jesus both, and
he says, uh, it's easy to blame the installers because sometimes they're less knowledgeable. Um, that's why education
is important. And then, Jesus kind of fights back also with the opposite
because he's saying that, you know, sometimes the installer isn't prepared or, you know, preparing the the
substrate correctly or even doing something as simple as reading the instructions. Like so it's
we kind of got, you know, and they're both installers and they're kind of both on separate sides right now because we
do see see it on both sides, right? And it's not just the the inspectors that are
not doing the best job. Sometimes it is the installers, right? And we have to we have to know that too to that it is the
installers sometimes. And I'm an installer first and I
have to read instructions all the time as an inspector and I can go down that list generally
and find 10 things that on a lot of these claims that the installer could have done to protect himself.
Mhm. And there things that I had not done in the past before I had extra training.
Once you get extra training and you learn and you see that a shortcut that I made as an installer and now all of a
sudden I'm on a job that's failed and I directly because of something I could have done differently if I had read
those instructions. you just said something too like so and and we talk about this a lot is with with all the
information at an installer's fing at everyone's fingertips um
why do you think that we're still seeing failures and our failures rising when we
have all the information at our fingertips and failures are essentially preventable
because we don't have a standard. It's very simple. We don't have a standard. We don't have a level that
everyone has their own checklist. Um, other commissioning parties will tell you they don't want a conclusion.
You refer to a manufacturing standard or a standard of I'm talking about anybody's commissioning party, right? So, you have
you have some out there that have some of the best installation written guidelines out there. I don't know who
they are, but I read them a lot. I've got some that have copied. [clears throat] Thank you.
I didn't say you, but um I didn't imply you, but I'm smiling. Um but I will tell
you, you know, you can't take a non-named product and say that's your installation guidelines for 12 SKUs
across the board, right? There's no chance of success when there's, you know, a 5 in, a 7 in, a 9 in plank, it's
48, it's 60 in. And yet we have one set of guidelines that these inspectors are supposed to follow.
So are you kidding? Are we talking about standard guidelines? Are we talking about manufacturer specific I guess?
Yeah, we're talking about manufacturer specific guidelines, you know, and and and and the inspectors
will Google what that concurrent one is when they should have went and got the archived ones for the claim that was
done in 2022. So, there's mistakes being made. My gosh, even on the claim form,
think about that, right? My Dawn, my better half, spends a half an hour, 45
minutes doing a phone interview. Half the time they say it's residential, it could be commercial. We're dealing with
the builder. We can't get inside the house. You know, we're being told, I mean, we can't get, you know, so it's
difficult. And in my reports, which a few of you have seen, um, you know, if it's not conveyed in the claim form,
we'll acknowledge it while we're there because we're not sure who filled out that claim form. We're not sure who touched it last, right? So, it's it's
really onus on to the inspector to make sure we give all the details. I mean, I
don't care about the flag or who they root for tonight at the ball game in in Milwaukee. Um, go Brewers. But I mean,
ultimately, at the end of the day, you are supposed to not be personable. You're supposed to find the facts,
collect the data, give the information, and if there is a manufacturing defect,
or and and you've checked off all the boxes of what it's not, I I believe, you
know, the vendor partner should have some recourse on that. and and there's a disconnect with that as well. So, this
thing kind of goes deep real quick. Um, there's another thing I'd like to add, Ken, real quick with you. It's okay as
an inspector to say that you found nothing,
no evidence as to why that floor's failing. I see too many reports where people are just, well, I can't find
anything wrong, so it's Andy's fault. Right. It's a domino. That's correct.
It's a domino effect. So, so did did you know is it a domino? Did did the guy
that hit it too hard, did he create it the top profile to break off? Well, that's up to the inspector to know how
to to to do that. And they're not being trained down that road. They're just not. What you guys got?
And that hurts the manufacturer, that hurts the dealer, that hurts the consumer, that hurts everybody.
Smiling. He's just I don't want that pressure to build up too much, bro. I I'm being very careful about what I
say on this podcast because I I don't want to uh completely piss off my uh
fellow constituents out there. But uh I've got my popcorn, Kevin.
I mean, but but you know the is you know, yeah, as an installer, you
better do it all, right? Document everything. Document everything, right? Because when
you call up a manufacturer and say that there's a problem with your product, if you don't have all that information
[clears throat] somewhere documented, right, the best tool we have nowadays is our is our
phone because it can timestamp and uh keep that evidence. But you'd be
surprised how many claims forms I read where this the the lack of information
back is insane, right? Moisture testing. I don't know. Was the HVAC on? Sure.
Maybe. I don't know. Right. It But then they think that the manufacturer is
responsible to go look at this job when we have no information to tell us that it was installed properly to begin with.
We're installation guidelines followed. Um you know, and even as an inspector,
say we set send an inspector out at that point, right, there's only so many much
information he can collect. If we if we can't get the information to be to to begin with, how are we going to get it on the back end? It's, you [snorts]
know, so a as an install as an installer perspective, what I'm saying is best
practice is to document everything. Make sure you're reading the instructions before you use any of these products,
right? And make sure you're getting the right ones because it changes constantly. I I read some guidelines the
other day and a week later I read them again and they were completely different, right? these things change
and manufacturers realize that that there's might be a better practice or or a better standard or whatever it may be,
then you're going to change those guidelines. So, online you're going to find those. But I I want to talk about
more about like, you know, what happens when when this claim actually starts, right? What are your chances of of of
this panning out in in your in your behalf? And I don't care what side of the fence you're on as far as an
inspector, a manufacturer, the installer, right? I want to talk about
that. You know, what standards are we meeting? You know, what standard does this floor have to meet? If it's if it's
short, right, of what it's supposed to be, well, how short can it be before
that that's deemed a manufacturing issue? And who sets those standards? And
that's what sets those standards. He says that it seems like the best thing
to do with for installers is documentation um and trying to to prevent this stuff.
That way you have all this information once you do start getting to this side of the claim. It's it's not a matter of
hey do you have this information. It's hey you're here now so let's start talking about all my documentation right
up front so you know exactly what I was doing this entire time. And it's also
Ben's birthday. So, uh, we have people telling Ben, "Happy birthday." Happy birthday, Ben.
The thing The thing about it is if you don't have that information to start. Hey, Daniel. You've already on the inspectors.
Go ahead, Dave. On behalf of the
It'd be great just for once to have all that documentation, wouldn't it, guys? Would it make your wouldn't make our
jobs as inspectors a whole lot easier if we walked into a where we received a a
claim that had all this information that we try to dig up before we before we get
out there from the installer from the [clears throat] retailer call us back half the time
that never happened though. So you're absolutely right. If you don't have that documentation you
might not get even get an inspector to come look at the job. Right. So you better have that to start
off with. if I if if something does come back on you and happens because without
it I've denied some claims just because there was no information right so that's
that uh that Kenneth was talking about right like if we don't have a standard and maybe the standard has got to be
standardized for insta installers it's got to be standardized for inspectors like maybe there's a standard of
information that everyone should have and it should be consistent is what I'm
hearing what I'm learning right There's an inconsistency of standards required from start to inspection.
If inspired, it's the wild wild west.
That's not necessarily true. What what happen? It's not necessarily
true. There's a ton of standards out there. We just don't we don't research them to find out
they actually are. And so so you're right when you say that we lack the education to know
they're you can sign up at uh and be a part of ASM and and if you're not an installer and getting those current and
concurrent and by the way next month it's changing again gentlemen 2170 is changing 1869's changing so whatever
anybody was teaching three months ago it's changing next month I'm sorry but I'm on those boards I know they're
changing and is there a scholarship being the Is there a universal checklist that
every manufacturer will say yes, I approve? So, let me say this. So, right now in
Kenneth Jones, you may you may or may not be aware of this, but there's not a there's not a universal checklist, but each
manufacturer has their own parameters for inspections, right? They sure do. I see them. That's
correct. Yeah. Um, and the one thing I wanted to answer one of the chat questions before I talked about this other thing that
Kenneth brought up. Um Kendall uh says so why isn't there a standard quality
control all the way across the board with all manufacturers? I would think that there should uh there sold or there
should be sorry mispron misworded that whether residential or commercial when you work in a factory there is a QA
standard across the board that is expected for that certain part being made whether it's different companies or not. Kendall there absolutely is. We
spend more time in the man on the manufacturing side with our quality control process than anything else. We
I'll just share a little bit with ours without sharing too much information. We have a a 15minute auditing process on
our line. So every 15 minutes an entire portion of the product that we're manufacturing is brought off and
audited. On top of that, we also have a what we call a open box audit system and we go by uh what they call as the
milspec and we have a AQL acceptable quality level and we have to hit that acceptable quality level. Now there is a
standard in AM where they say that a manufacturer is allowed six defects per 100 planks or six defects per 100 pieces
depending on the product. Now that defect could be anywhere from a small little blemish or a chip in the locking
system if if it's a click flooring or something like that. But those are six defects allowed per 100 planks. Now
that's on a large scale, right? So if you put that into a 100,000 planks, that could quantif uh come up to a lot more
than six planks, right? But there is all manufacturers have a very rigorous
quality control system that they go by. There's there's labs. We have I'm I'm at I'm at my facility right now. I have two
labs within 25 ft of me that we run every test you can think of that that we
are required to run. uh for instance the ASM F-3261 that's the standard
specification for modular uh that or for polymer rigid core flooring right so that's our SPCs and our WPC's every one
of the specifications that we have to meet to sell our product to the public we test those in our in our facility on
top of that we're doing normal installation layup testing making sure that our product is installable um and
on top of that we're also doing test installations and things like that so we are definitely
doing what we're supposed to do from a manufacturing side. On an installation side, there should be a quality standard
as well. There should be a standard practice for installation, right? And you have things that CFI teaches, NFCT
teaches, and things like that, but there's no true standard practice as there should be. Now, the inspection
side of it, there is an inspe standard practice for inspecting. Now, this one
is just for that's that's gone into ASM right now and it's still within the very
preliminary version of it, but there is a standard practice for inspecting that is going to be coming up. This is going
to be for modular resilient flooring as of now, but there will there will definitely be uh other other versions of
this coming out. And what we're hoping to do with that is we're hoping to be able to use that practice to give to an
inspector and they have to follow that standard practice just like if they're just like the standard practice the ASM
F710 the standard practice for uh prepping concrete flooring to receive resilient flooring. They're going to
have to follow that practice to the tea when they're inspecting that floor. You all right?
Did he fall out of the podcast again? So, um, you know, building off of what
you just said there, and anybody can answer this is, uh, so who the inspector process, right?
There there's going to be one, you said. So, for right now, who holds the the inspectors accountable? What qualification standards, oversight, uh,
should the industry expect with these changes that that you're saying are coming up? Right now, I think it's the
manufacturers who are commissioning the inspectors. they really have the biggest oversight because if Andy or Kevin get
an inspection report that they don't like, they're not using those inspectors again a lot of the time. And it's not
that they don't like it. Let's just clarify that cuz that'd be biased. But an inspection report that isn't backed
up by facts, but but who holds who holds that that that portion accountable, right? Like,
so what what you're saying is if it favors one side or the other and if it's not factual, where does that information
how does that information come up to to me as the installer? Uh how does the manufacturer find out? And what about
the client? How who's protected, who isn't protected, and how do we find protection for for for those three?
Good question. Yeah. And Jim Freeman said there needs to be a standard for installing before the inspection standard. The only reason
I'll disagree with that, Jim, is because there is a standard for installing. It's called the damn instructions. Read them.
Right? If you're taking classes and you're you're you're taking installation courses, um you know how to install.
Read the instructions. That's the standard amongst the other standards that are in the industry. If you're a carpet installer, you have the CRI 104
and 105. If you're if you're a vinyl installer, you have, you know, the ASMF710 to go by amongst other
standards. I mean, there is standards for installers to to install. you know, um the reason I think that there needs
to be an inspector one before that is because inspectors most of the time it and a lot of them are just trying to do
their best, right? But when that when that conclusion or that inspection report comes back, depending on who it
goes to, it can cause turmoil between the customer, you know, between the manufacturer, the dealer, and the end
user, you know, because now we're at a point to where we really don't know which way to go. And who's it who's who
does it affect the most at the end of the day? the consumer, the end user, right? The person that has
to live with that flooring in their house, you know? So, I think it's very important that we all come together and
figure out a way to to do this, you know, in a more efficient way. Now, who holds that inspector
accountable? I can tell you if you go to the certifying body of that inspector
and a and share an inspection report that you may not find that is factual.
It's opinionated. It's loose, right? I won't hesitate to go to whoever certified that inspector
and say, "Hey, you got an inspector that needs re-educating or basic or or bottom
line, maybe even license pulled, right, to inspect floors." But by the time you
find that out, the damage is usually already done, right? And at that point,
it's hard it's hard to backtrack and and send a good inspector in after the fact.
Um because an opinion's already out there. The worst thing you can get in an inspection report is an opinion.
Okay? That's the worst thing you can get. And if I and I've seen them I've had them and I've sent them right back
before and I've made calls on some inspectors throughout this country and right to whoever certified them and
voiced my opinion and said I I personally won't use this guy but you know to protect your own entity
certifying entity you better you need to address this there should be uh there
should be a a standard for these for inspectors as well as in installers I agree but like how do we get there
because there's multip multiple certifying entities teaching different things with different equipment and heck
the equipment alone that you're using as an inspector should have some kind of standard as well because I I mean I've
seen some pretty homemade tools to say the least right um
that I'm getting pictures of trying to prove let's just say in expansion you know how do you know right there should
be there should be a standard set of tools there should be a standard testing as uh Andy was talking about as far as
what tests need to be run on a modular project if it fails. Same thing with carpet, right? And those facts should be
taken and given to the manufacturer and then the manufacturer is going to need to make an opinion. Now, there's a lot
of problems that lie in that train of thought that I just had, right? Because you might be dealing you might be
dealing with a manufacturer that doesn't care, that's already in his head that says, "Hey, I'm not paying this out."
I've seen that before, too. Using quality products by by companies that you trust go a long way because if you
do get into trouble with something um you know, it's best practice to have somebody that's actually going to deal
with you and look at their product um and not and not have to get to the point
of going to a lawsuit to get this handled, you know, by another third
party. right now. As a consumer, you you have all the right in the world to get your own inspector, which I highly
recommend. I mean, heck, I as a manufacturer, I'd rather you get your own inspector cuz I I don't have to pay
for it. All right. [laughter] Uh the other problem is though, there's a lot of manufacturers that will use a
lot of uh trinkets, I'm going to call them, to get out of even dealing with
the claim. All right, man. Everybody on this phone knows what I'm talking about.
Look at that. Look at that manufacturing guideline and it's going to I I I mean they just stand out to me like they
might as well be highlighted. I was like, "Well, this manufacturer is not going to go take care of this problem,
right?" So, I mean, best advice for and sometimes as an installer, you
I'll tell you, Kevin, they're starting to get written better.
They're getting written better today than they used to get. used to be written. There was a time that uh it
seemed like there was this is another reason why you should read the manufacturing guidelines. It's not just for the instructions, but it's
for the loopholes that are written right there in front of you, right? And if you don't follow this or don't do exactly
this way, right? And there's problems with that too that we could discuss. I mean
um for for these guidelines whether it's inspections or installations
are the manufacturers doing enough on their part to provide the information needed or required to have a successful
uh or create a successful installation guideline or is it the manufacturer's responsibility
to teach the installer how to install? Well, not necessarily,
but to give them the information required to create a system or a process I think out there.
This is where it's hard, right? Because the manufacturer can write out whatever they want and it sounds amazing and then
you give it to two different installers and they will interpret it in two totally different ways.
That's true. That's true. So, um I'm going to go back to like the ASM and all that. If if I were coming in
brand new to this this this industry and I want to do everything as by the book
as I possibly could, where do I start? Do I start with information from ASM and
then use that as my basis or do I start with the manufacturers's information and use that as my basis and then just refer
to ASM as needed? Always go by the manufacturer instructions first.
It doesn't matter what if it's carpet, vinyl, anything. Yeah. manufacturing manufacturer instruction supersed
it is but just make sure that there's manufacturing but make sure because some of these experts in this industry will tell you
that some of these um how do I say it now NEA um NWFA
organizations a couple others those are voluntary standards so I think I I think it's
difficult for some inspectors to understand um including manufacturers uh
distributors brokers, uh, designers, um, all the above. Uh, that, you know, what
is a industry standard, right? That right there we could be on this conversation for me and Andy could sit
here and talk till midnight about that, right? So, so you know what's voluntary to me. Voluntary is if you're going to
grandma's house for Thanksgiving, you bring a dish to pass, you don't show up, you're probably not going to get in the door, right? But but as inspectors we
you kind of get taught that hey if this is the industry standard or the source then that's what you can refer to. So
there are some gray areas out there. Um and I won't get too deep in the mixed with that but it is it is conferred.
Yeah and and Dave too there there there's problems that lie in the manufacturing
manufacturer specifications as well that go against industry standards. I I've seen that happen before too where I'm
reading a manufacturing guideline and I'm like my my goodness if they do that this this this is going to be
problematic. Um, I think it needs to be a fine balance between, you know, the
education from like ASM standards or NALA or CRI and then obviously you got
to follow the foreign manufacturers, but you better know enough when you read one of these guidelines to know if it's
wrong because I've read plenty of them that are wrong, right? Uh, the people that are writing these aren't always the
sharpest people in the industry, right? Well, and Jim says right here, he says when you read instructions that are 18
pages long, it's like they're including so much. So that way it's like you're you're bound to mess something up
because there's so much instruction to it. Well,
at at the same time we were talking about is the manufacturer is the manufacturer providing enough
information. That's where you get pages and pages and pages because if there's something that we left out that that
comes back on us, Dave. Exactly. So, we've got we've got to be as thorough thorough as possible,
right? Um, you know, I mean, God forbid we forget one little thing, right? Even though
that this is, you know, is stated in five other aspects of the flooring
industry, if it's not in our specifications, they can go to court and say, "Well, they didn't tell me I had to
flatten the floor." Right. Yeah. They didn't tell me I I I you know I I I
mean I've had I've had the weirdest calls. I I had somebody that glued turf down to to to their front lawn
and then called me up and asked me why I was failing. Right. So
please please please text me pictures of that. [laughter] So I mean there's so much that goes into
it. Right. But like at the same time, I think there's a lot of misconceptions going on and some stuff that
manufacturers are pushing to a point where, you know, putting the installer
into some tough tough positions uh legally when something does go wrong.
Um I don't know if I want to pull that card out on this, but uh Jim says that manufacturers set the
standards that you need to know, right? You need to follow, right? But now let me let me ask you
this. Is it Is it a standard that that if a manufacturer says you have to use
my glue? What what what happens if he uses a
different glue? Well, and he kind of touches on this too right here when he says that the you
know just talking about warranties, right? that they're written by lawyers and basically you hear hear stories
about how it's not the warranties are meant to cover the manufacturer and not really the
product. Well, that's where the the the literature changes from. Right. It won't say standard. It'll say requirement
versus standard. Right. Right. And it's not a standard, right? Because it's per per product that you're working
with. Ken, you mess ahead before we keep on going. Yeah. It's I don't care what it is.
Everybody that manufactures anything, they're going to write their warranty to protect themselves more so than the
consumers. Well, and and here's the caveat, and
everybody loves that word. You know, if I'm on a jump site and I
needed 55 gallon buckets of glue of what they said I needed to use and I ran out,
you can call technical services and they're going to rattle off three or four more other glues. But yet, if you look at their guidelines, the way
they're written, they tell you that's the only glue you can use or you void the warranty. And that's just not
accurate. Now, is there incompatibility? Well, that's hard for an inspector to de
to know where that's at. Where did it and if there is an incompat
difficult, right? No, no, no. You I'm sorry. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but that's that's the reason why, you know,
manufacturers are specifying certain adhesives because there could be incompat incompatibilities with other
adhesives in in the industry, right? Not all there is. And that and and that quantifies as called a mockup.
Not all adhesives are made the same. And you know, but still, they're they're not going to tell you not to
they don't all perform like QP. They're not going to not finish the job.
something can be close enough, you know, that's tough. I mean, it's tough for the installer.
Well, especially when you're looking at it in terms of you think about just the pricing, right?
Where it's like, all right, well, you told me I had to buy your adhesive. That was, and this is no joke. I have it.
This is numbers that I have seen come across my desk. They told me that it was $653
per pale of adhesive with their name on it. And I can buy the same adhesive over
here for $189 a pale.
It must compatibility. And you know it's And you know it's your And you know it's the same adhesive.
Uh yeah, they sent me the documents and the sticker of their label that they put
over the other one. you could still see the other one showing through. Well, I would just say that if you think of it as this, you're you're purchasing
the warranty. [laughter] You know, everything, you know, you purchase a car warranty, so you're p
purchasing that warranty when you pay a little more for the manufacturer adhesive, right? Is it But but what I'll say to that is
let me is we don't void the claim. We we we say you have to go to that adhesive
manufacturer for the bond warranty, right? And that's what I was going to say. Yeah. You know, and I think that's fair,
right? I'm an installer, too. I think that's fair. If I choose to come outside of of of what the manufacturer
recommends and use adhesive that I'm being sold as a if I'm if I'm a dealer and I'm being sold pallets of a certain,
you know, Robert or, you know, Kevin's adhesive and he guarantees that his adhesive works with that product and I
use it and I have a failure and I went outside of the manufacturer recommended adhesive, I need to go to them for the
for the bond warranty. I need to go to for it. I think that's very and Jose says that
but let me ask I need a lifetime warranty on Robert's adhesives for CFI like Taylor does and
that means even if it's my fault you guys should cover me. [laughter] Well, let me ask you this. Does a
manufacturer that private labels adhesive cover the bond warranty
that our adhesive? I think he's just saying like general like it because they're going to end up
going back to whoever manufactured that adhesive anyways. Right. Right. Right. And they're going to and they're
going to end up covering that bond warranty. If you look in manufacturer specifications, even if they say private
label, it does not say anything about bond warranty in their warranty.
Hey Pete Kane, go ahead. You can read that one. Street. Yeah. Um, hey Pete, how you
doing by the way? Um, it says, "I've always felt that installation instructions are recommendations that are based on proven historical
successes. Experienced installers can navigate outside of the lines and still achieve a win. Those not so skilled, not
so." And I agree with that. Let's talk back about adhesives. Fine. Go use whatever adhesive you want to. But when
I open that floor up and you started with a with the right notch trial on one side of the room and it's being flat
trled all the way on the other side of the room because you didn't follow the adhesive recommendations or you left, you know, every substance in the world
on the concrete before you glued over it and you didn't prep the floor properly, you're still going to have problems. It
goes all the way back to that. We can just we can just also say that you have to use common sense, right?
Because that's something that a lot of people lack these days. like, "Oh, I'm trying to use this one."
And how about And how about the how about the general contractor that's that's not sequencing anything
correctly, right? So, you know, the builders and the contractors, the project managers that that we all show
up for, they all want to participate in the claims process. They show up, they don't have any paperwork. They just
think it's a training. I do want to add to what you just said there, too, because you're right. However, you can use the general
contractor's master contract and the verbiage in there against them for that
to make sure that you as the flooring professional are put yourself in a place of success because right in their own
literature, it states the standards that they must follow. And if you're not
doing the research into that contract, that's exactly right. So, so if you're an inspector, if you're an inspector and
you're not asking for copies of invoices, if you're not asking for a construction schedule, not a look ahead,
if you're not asking for access to Procore, if you're not doing any of that, you probably shouldn't be.
That's actually really good information for people, right? So, we're just not doing our due diligence. We're lazy.
So, you guys, I got a couple more questions I wanted to ask and I know we're just being lazier. People are
getting slower and they're not paying attention. Getting towards the end of the show. So, I want to I want to kind of blink these last two questions in together. So,
because I know it's going to take more than a couple minutes. Uh, unless anybody else has something to ask or
Daniel, you have a question. No, go ahead. I mean, I think this has
organically gone pretty well. Yeah. And so, so I'm going to put these two together because they kind of
work well together. It's uh if everyone agrees education is important, what's
preventing us from making it a bigger priority throughout the industry? Period. And then adding on to that, this is a
compound question. If there was one thing about the flooring industry that each of you could
change um and how the industry handles failures,
what would it be? So those things go together, right? Because it's education and education,
more education doesn't necessarily equate to less failures, but it'll help remedy failures.
Start with Ken. being honest. There's a couple things being being
honest, being transparent, being unbiased, doing your due diligence, and
educating with everyone in the industry at every function that we can all attend
together would be a nice start. Um, but there are people in this industry that just have their own agendas. So, I'm not
so sure as if everybody's on the same page of wanting to make things better. We all say it, but you know, you got to
do it. And you got to be able to spread the wealth through everybody. And if you can just help somebody out, I don't care
if it's an installer, a manufacturer, if you find a problem, you know, let them
know about that. Kind of ties into and and so, you know, you're you're you're not the we're not the judge and
the jury. We're just trying to to help the claim. Is it lazy or is it a matter of install
rates? If we paid them more, they would have time more have uh time to research
and be more professional, which I agree with and disagree with at the same time
because I know guys that would never do it. And then it's other guys, you know,
I mean, the guys that are on the call right now on this podcast that would be are the ones that would be doing it. Well, Jim, I just want to
I want to add this to Jim. If you were the one on getting paid on the lower end
and if one loss is detrimental to your business for you losing your home or putting your family in a bad spot, why
would you not invest the time needed to educate yourself a little bit more because you have way more to lose than
someone who has more funds to to play with. I'm just putting it there.
Different different perspectives and togy back on that just I'm I'll say this and I'm going to say this till I'm blew
in the face. We are never going to change the rates in the industry, okay?
Because there's too many there's too many parts of the industry. There's too many types of installations, okay?
There's going to be guys that are going to do it for the absolute bottom dollar. It's up to you as an installer to change
yourself and to get to that better wage, to educate yourself, to get into a better part of the industry and make
that better money, right? Um, but it goes back to our guys lazy know they have too much pride to get educated.
That is the biggest issue that I see. We've offered installation companies like companies I I can't name the names
but huge installation companies around the United States training and they've
laughed at us via email. They've laughed at us. So, so that goes back to that question is what is really preventing
our industry from making uh education a larger priority, a bigger priority.
It's really hard to make it as much as a the the installers have to make it their priority. And the inspectors, they have
to make it a priority. We can only push it as much as we can. Go Dave. Go ahead, Dave.
All right. A couple things there. The reason the reason the the biggest reason for this is we don't expect it. As long
as we don't expect it, it'll never happen, right? We want to make we want to make the whole world better, right? I
like to talk about the standards and rather than look at the standard. Why don't we just be the standard, right?
Let's let's be the standard. The reason the H3 doesn't do it is because we can get by forever without
doing it. So, if I can make a just put yourself in
the shoes of your everyday guy, if I can make an honest living without having to live to a standard, most most people
won't do it. The guys on this call are probably aside I know that I always wanted to I know Kevin always wanted to
be that standard, not not not just live to a standard. I want you to live my
standard. And that's what set us apart all those years ago.
And I'm not saying we're missing that today, but I'm saying that we need to inspire that today. And how do we do
that? I don't know. We can't do that. No individual can do that. It has to be that has to be a concentrated industry.
What's that? Is that me? Um, the floor is yours.
You know, we we always talk about education, right? Education, education. How do we get these guys inspired? who's
who's at fault for this? You know, should it be the installer doing it for himself? Should it be driven by the
consumer? Um, there's a lot of different ways to go about it, but the easiest and fastest
way would to put a legal standard out there of education for flooring
installers of somehow, some weight, right? uh you know, electrician has to
carry uh a certification. A plumber's got to carry a certification. Unless you're just calling yourself a handyman,
right? Why not flooring, right? Why not flooring? And uh so yeah, I would love
to see that happen someday. I don't know if it ever will in my lifetime, but I I would love to see that. But Andy's
right, you know what I mean? It should be the installer stepping up and wanting to be that guy. But without without
setting, you know, without setting the precedence of that it's needed, that it's required, you know, where's the
demand for that? It's very few and far between. I've never heard I've never in all my years, there's only been so many
jobs I've been on that a a customer asked me if I was certified. What kind
of education do I have? Am I qualified to do this job? Right? I mean, once in a
blue moon, you know, publicly if we educate the public saying, "Hey, you should be asking for a certified
installer, you know, and that goes down the line to inspectors as well and manufacturers, right? We we should all
we should all be be there and trying to inspire the the create the the need by
the demand by educating the the the the public itself, right? Why would you just
have anybody come in here? Why didn't you ask me what my qualifications are? Uh um this is why I'm st, you know,
getting behind trade tap. I think that might be the start of of going to that direction. Uh creating that demand by
the public. And by doing that, it's going to force the hand of the installer to get educated and it's going to force
the hand of the inspector to get better educated uh and continuous education. Um
and I'd like to see some standards set out there amongst that we talked about earlier. uh some better standards that
everybody's got to follow. Not just uh you know like the Wild West and saying, "Hey, I'm going to go measure this
floor." Measure it how? Measure it with what? Right. Everybody's teaching different things here. We need to get on
the same page. Um you know, we need we need to set an example.
Mr. Scott, you want me to read the question again?
Been a while. Oh, we can't even hear you. Can you guys hear him?
No. No. You're on mute, brother. Oh, wait. Might have to quit and reopen again.
He might miss his opport.
So, so I just read something that was interesting while Scott's trying to log on. Um,
more covering news April 20, 2026. The commentary attributes the growing
shortage partly to the aging workforce, insufficient consistent training pathways. This ain't me, by the way.
This is I'm reading this right on my screen above me. It discussed this basic installation programs and the overall
sediment was that there are 300 hours of instruction across carpet, hardwood,
resilient tile, plus foundational skills including but not limited to concrete.
300 Did anybody hear that? 300 hours. So, you give me an inspector out there
that's got 300 hours, I've got a little over a,000
hours on site in 42 years. So, we got 300 hours of instruction to get somebody
up to an elite inspector level. Um, we don't have that today. We don't have it.
Sorry. We don't your audio work. We don't have enough qualified installers and we don't have enough
qualified inspectors. I'm sorry. just still not working. It It hates you right now. Scott,
how about Scott? You just move your mouth and then Daniel will just say whatever he thinks you're trying to say. [laughter]
I think we should have the same people on in a few weeks and have the same discussion again and continue. I mean, we're going to be able to add to
it for sure. We have There's so much we could talk about. We should probably close out with there, Daniel.
Yeah. So, I'm just going to read this comment from Pete real quick. Um, in a past life, he worked for Nora. One of
the things he focused on in his territory was the GC's and other schedulers. If the installation is is
addressed well in advance, it removes a lot of the fasttrack issues once the clock is ticking during the construction
schedule. Food for thought. He had a lot of success with that. And I think that's what we've seen a lot of success with
too is those those meetings that in your contract says that you have to attend or
else you get fined, right? and bringing those things to light well before
you get there. That way, oh, you're installing forbo. So, it has to be how
how warm in here and we don't have this wall in here right now. And this is real
life. We've been on these in these situations, right? It's like, yeah, you guys got to close this wall up, get it
all contained, and then get this slab up to temp before we even take a look at coming in here. Well, I agree with that,
but that works in that segment, right? When you have those types of jobs and
have those meetings, right? It doesn't it it doesn't necessarily work for a retail company that's installing Susie
Homemaker's house and, you know, Bob the DIYer's house and and people like that. You got guys that
are coming up and loading jobs Monday through Friday that are going to a house that a salesperson that came out of
college with a two-year degree and that's the first time they have ever they the fir they hand them in the work
order while they're loading and that's the first time they ever know what they're going to be doing that day. Exactly. And that's an education portion that
that starts at the retailer. Right. Like right it all falls back on on the same thing.
If you don't know, you don't know. But you do have that side on the residential side with guys like Ken Bon and people
that are going in to those same residential homes, but they take they have start to finish relationships with
that customer. And so they are able to do every bit of that and plan it and do it the right way. Right. So there's so
many different sides of this that that's the biggest problem with this. It's not just cut and dry, do it one way because
there's so many different segments of the industry that just don't work like that unfortunately. And then you get
into the business of mixing those installers, right? You got the installers that do, you know, 40 apartments a week. Um, and they get
called by one of the dealers in their local town to come in and do a residential carpet job, right? And
they're used to doing 40 apartments. They're like a bull in the china shop when they get in there. You know, there's so many different things that go
into that. It's it's crazy how wide vastly wide this industry is. It's it's
in it's insane to me. All right, Scott, we got you now. Nope. Nope. It really don't like you
today. And I've been on that side, too. Blame it on Dave. Got to blame it on somebody.
I heard what he said, man. He said, "Man, that Dave is sexy." I heard it. [laughter]
I don't think I don't think anyone has ever said that to be honest with you. But, you know, that's just my my
things that never happened for 400. Alec, [laughter] you guys, all I heard was go brew crew. That's all
I heard. We definitely got to we definitely got to cut this off and we're going to be able to go forever on this
one. So So my apologies to everyone, but I think we've kind of overstayed our welcome and and with our a loted time.
So we do got to shut it down, but we can't shut it down without giving a shout out to our sponsors uh today,
which is uh what? Diversion Adhesives uh and who else we have today, Daniel?
NFCT and Pro Installer Magazine. Um, I think
they're they're sponsors all the time, so it doesn't matter. And I know that this was one of the subjects where we
probably should have said something in the beginning uh about diverging um and and training
with NFCT, but sorry guys. Blame it on you because you're the one that started it. So, it's my fault.
Easier to do that. And then uh one more before we take off is make sure uh if
you haven't signed up, you get signed up for synergy and start mitigating all this stuff that we're talking about
today. You know, go get with some like-minded people and start learning. And we are going to have a continued
episode conversation about this. Uh uh Kevin, like you said, this is kind of a very very broad subject and we could
touch on a lot of different aspects on it and there's a lot of questions coming in. So, you know, thank you to the audience for participating. We we
couldn't have done it without those questions. And thank you to all of our guests for for participating and being
willing to to put yourselves in I don't want to say harm's way, right? But I know that sometimes opinions get taken
the wrong way. Um and but but they have to be they have to be heard. They have to be said. Um you don't have to listen
to them everyone, but they are opinions from professionals in our industry. We do appreciate everyone joining. And
don't hang up after we we Some of them are facts. Yeah. Most of them are facts, right?
So, thank you everyone. If you don't if you could like and and share, subscribe. If you don't like us, do that, too.
Share it with someone like that. Look at these fools making fools of themselves. Come see me on the 12th. I'm doing a
presentation at Synergy. Hey, we will see you guys down there. But yeah, but anyway, thank you everyone for see
you next week.
