The Huddle - Episode 223. Stop Just Selling Flooring & Start Solving Problems
Selling flooring is one thing. Understanding what a customer actually needs is another.
Too often, the conversation starts and ends with the product. What color do they want? What's their budget? How quickly can it be installed? But a successful flooring project involves much more than choosing the right material. It requires understanding the space, asking the right questions, identifying potential challenges, and helping customers make informed decisions before the work ever begins.
In this episode of The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose discuss why flooring professionals need to think beyond the transaction. They explore the difference between selling a product and providing a solution, the importance of educating customers, and how listening and setting realistic expectations can build stronger relationships and prevent costly problems down the road.
The most valuable thing a flooring professional brings to the table isn't always the product they're selling. It's the knowledge, experience, and ability to recognize problems the customer may not even know exist.
When you focus on solving problems instead of simply closing sales, you're not just delivering a better floor. You're building trust, creating lasting relationships, and giving customers a reason to choose you beyond the price tag.
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What is up team? Welcome back to the huddle, the number one podcast in
flooring. We're here every week to help you guys gain forward progress in your career. Simply put, we're here to help
you guys win. To all our new viewers, welcome to the team.
With me as always, Mr. Daniel and Jose Gonzalez out of Grand Rapids, Michigan at a wonderful company called Preer
Flooring. You should have just messed that one up on purpose. That would have been great.
Just name it wrong.
No, I can't mess that name up. Today's uh sponsors want to give a
special shout out to Divergent Adhesives and NFCT.
If you are looking I say it all the time, when you're looking for a an
adhesive that's got like all the the the background with Mr. Diver Jent himself,
Sunny Callahan, uh you know, he knows what he's doing. Uh put his adhesives to the test. He he
will uh he'll challenge you for that. Even uh I've been told, you know, your
most challenging environments, use divergent. And also use divergent when you don't have the most challenging
environments. I mean, hook them up. Go check them out online there. Click the QR code. Give Sunny and Divergent
Adhesive some love. And if you are looking to get trained in the resilient world in particular,
hit up the NFCT. Now listen, they have a a um floor prep and uh you know
certification. You guys can go to their training hub right now and sign up for
that class. Part of it will be online and then once you pass that you can do the inperson and the uh the course is
affordable. It's the foundation of flooring is understanding how to do
floor prep. Okay. So this I am calling anybody watching this video to go click
on that QR code. It's right there and go sign up for that class, take the online
portion and then schedule yourself for an inperson uh the inperson portion of
it. It's again f foundational to our craft is that. So it applies whether
you're doing hardwood, sheet vinyl, vinyl flooring, carpet, it doesn't matter. You need to take that course. So
go now now go to NFCT
and of course trade tap go get yourself the BTI when you take that course it's
going to give you credit and increase your ranking so that is imperative again
floor prep is imperative to our every one of our disciplines. So make sure to take that go get yourself a profile on
the BTI. It's completely free for life and it's going to do nothing but benefit you as an installer to be able to show
your worth versus someone else who doesn't have a VTI and doesn't have a badge and doesn't have the ability to
prove to their customers that they are what they say they are. So go hook it
up. What's up? Now, with all that out of the way, today's topic is to stop just
selling flooring and start selling solutions. Uh, I added my own little flare uh there, but I think that's
pretty much what the uh verbatim topic is. That being said,
um you know, when you're selling solutions, I'm going to kick right back to to uh the NFCT sub subfloor prep
course. What What's the exact name of that uh subfloor prep or substrate and subfloor?
Yeah, I knew it had a little more to it than I was giving it. Subfloor and substrate. It's one or the other, right? it.
Yeah, one of those variations. That's part of selling solutions, folks,
is making sure as an advisor
as an advisor or a salesperson for a flooring company or if you are a an
installer selling directly to customers. In any case, getting that subf floor,
you know, getting your prep right and getting your your your pricing
to cover that, like at least giving a uh a lot of times what we'll do is give a
estimate. We'll actually put on our quote, hey, this is a pure guess because we don't know what's under that floor,
but this is our best guess. We know what we have to do to go from broad loom to
LVP. So in that case, this is your prep number. But the point being is that's a
solution, right? Subfloor and sub subfloor prep and and substrate prep and
concrete moisture testing, all of that part is part of your solution.
Uh all that being said, guys, what what do you uh what do you want to say about this topic?
Um, it all leads back to everything that we talk about all the time, and we're going to sound like we're repeating ourselves
again, but um, the uh, sales staff,
let me let me back up. An owner of a company should require their sales associates, sales staff to
at least educate themselves on the products that they are selling. Right?
Some individuals are better at residential sales. Some are are focused on commercial. However, if you're going
to be selling products, whether it's spec or you're specifying, you should do
yourself a favor and give yourself at least a small basic education
um as to what you are putting out in the world. and not it's
not only going to help you for sales, but they're going to ask you questions as a salesperson.
And it it it'd be nice to have somewhat of an answer or know where to find the
answer. That's huge. And also, your installation team, whether it's in-house
or subcontractors, your relationship with your installation team will be a
lot better with that type of communication and dialect between the two of you. you'll understand them a
little bit more and they'll also understand you a little bit more. When you say they, who are you speaking
of? They, as in the the installers, whomever you're communicating with, whomever's in
charge of communicating with you on any of your installs, whether it's residential, commercial, or even getting
together a budget, you know, or a conceptual plan. It's your communication
is more detailed, right? you're you're talking apples to apples and not apples
to oranges. A little bit closer. One of the um good I I think the essence
of this topic is to not just sell the customer what they want in all cases in
all like don't just be driving for the sale. I think that's the real at least
that's what I get out of the topic the most is don't just drive for the sale, right? Look at the use case for that
customer. if they're talking about putting, you know, they talk this um about
putting an LBT in a bathroom, well, you might want to make sure that you're
either discussing the proper installation of such and all the things that go into that to help it because
waterproof flooring is like if you drop a glass of water onto the floor itself,
not if water gets around the edges and down like the proper for installation for a bathroom that has LVP,
particularly in a home, is siliconing all the way around and then putting your baseboards on and like the the the the
room, one single toilet flood and you're still replacing the room even if it doesn't completely affect the flooring.
It's schooling them. It's schooling them on if you do this in your bathroom,
some of the water could come from the toilet anyways. And then it's yeah around the drain.
You can do everything perfect and then something happens there and then that job is still not going to perform as it
should. Yeah. So, so Paul, going back to to what you said too about the um the basis of
the conversation where I was going with that, which I took the long way around, so my bad is um
if if if a if a salesperson uh or an installer they take the time to understand what they're selling, they're
more likely to present solutions um during the interaction with the
client or a project. And that's always great. Then the more the more open and
better communication you have with the installers back and forth, you learn a little bit more and then you're able to prevent problems before they occur
because of a material spec or unrealistic expectation
um by the client. And I think that that's where the sell solutions um
instead of problems. Yeah, this is like a retail environment thing more than like in our businesses in commercial the
architect specifying different things and you're just you kind of got to do it
the way that the architect wants you to. But I did just walk a project that they
wanted an epoxy adhesive throughout this whole clinic under the LVT with white
stark white LVT. So they wanted to see the the adhesive
in every scene then is what you're saying. It doesn't look great, guys. And it's a
job we're doing. It doesn't look horrific, but it doesn't look great because it's really the misuse of that
deal. and had our PM been just a little bit I mean some of this is not like
misselling but we because we didn't sell epoxy adhesive but there is an
opportunity where we can advise against that and just go with a hard set acrylic
same same goal a hard setting adhesive but it's got some stickiness as you know
with acrylic once it's done flashing, you roll it and the LVT will kind of
stay in place. Then with epoxy, you're rolling that stuff. You're walking on it. You're displacing adhesive every
time you're walking on it. Yeah. And every time you're rolling it, it's meant really for smaller. Now, if they'd
have just done it in the bathrooms, understood, right? It won't it won't even soften underwater
pressure. Uh, so a little bit more of an application for it, but throughout the
whole facility, it's tough to make it look the way you want it to look. And we
want a white floor to look white. And you have white floors that have, you
know, adhesive and seams here and there. And it's not egregious. The install I It's
hard for me to like, you know, blame it. It's hard because when you're using that wet set adhesive,
it's got a Mhm. So you you can't necessarily see what's
underneath the tape sometimes. I mean, we've ran into that too, right? Where it's like everything looks amazing, then you pull
off a couple pieces of tape and it's like, man, it's like epoxy is hard to clean, right? Like it's next to impossible to
clean. And and you're right about that. The wet set are hard set with with acrylic. And
I think we've run into a lot of that in the hospital settings, right underneath the beds where they're using the brakes.
they they're sick of seeing material. The sheer strength is pretty weak on a
PS adhesive and they've had some specs where we're installing sheet vinyl and we do epoxy underneath where the bed is,
but regular adhesive everywhere else and we try to figure out a system that works for them, but they don't think about the
path. Yeah, there's a there's a lot of different ways to do it. There's uh definitely ways you could
try to avoid and I agree with what you're saying, Paul. Yeah. Now, I want to get to some of these comments right
here. So, uh Ken Ken Jones says he just got home from two days of travel in
Michigan and Ohio and floor prep on three of those jobs. Going back to what we were when we were talking about uh
floor prep would have saved all parties or lack thereof, right? Because that's
typically what they're going to look at. Before you go to the next comment, I want you like I hope the audience gets
this. You have to understand floor prep. You are not a flooring installer. Call.
Yeah, I'm talking to whoever's watching this that doesn't understand how important floor prep is and how to
properly do it. You have to do it right. There's a couple of ways to do it,
right? Which is be one of the guys that Kenneth probably said the floor prep's
insufficient on here and you're taking the hit on it or go to the freaking class and apply what you've learned.
There is no reason any flooring installer that's watching this should not take that course and pay the it's I
think it's 200 bucks for goodness sakes. It's not a lot of money. It's one day out of your time. you're going to learn
a lot and then apply that because being one of the three on here, for example,
in in Ken's comment, that's an a way more expensive. I promise you, that's
way more expensive than taking a day off and taking a couple of evenings to get through the online portion and paying
your 200 bucks. At the very least, you'll understand the techniques and
proper uh methods around subfloor preparation and being she vinyl
guy that was my I mean I pride I put more as much pride on the preparation as
I did as my on my install it all that beautiful sheet vinyl is
gorgeous floor we we used to go into jobs right and we would be prepping for like three days
and they'd come in and be like oh my god is this going to get done but you prep for three days and have it installed in
Mhm. Yeah. There used to be a joke. It's It's got Oh, go ahead. I want to
hear your There used to be a joke with uh the the the way other installers looked at the
way Daniel and I prepped. They would go in there and they'd be like, "Oh, man, that looks like glass. Let's touch it
again." Right? Let's do Let's do it again. It's not good enough. And um it
it it took a lot of hours and a lot of practice and also a lot of understanding on what we were doing wrong. And this is
prior to uh the the training and certification class that we got with the NFCT. This is prior to that.
A lot of I wish I would have taken an extra half an hour. I wish I would have
just ground though that aggregate that we seen, right? Those little small
things built up to what we created as far as the system and the process. I don't care. Everybody made fun of us.
Our stuff was sticking and it was and it was solid looking beautiful and it was good.
Yeah. So, and you don't have to stop at that course either. There's other
Yeah. Uh sub subfloor preparation courses. Take yourself two of those. Take
yourself a couple of them and get some different perspective on on each direction. Um, but the the point is this
is the foundation of being a flooring installer. Uh, it's not it's not an
add-on. It is the foundation. That's what I'm trying that that's what he gets to, right? He
says the dealer, retailers, franchises need to train their sales team because a lot is being ignored. Um, and I I was
talking to someone about this earlier today or yesterday or something, I don't remember, but it's like it's the
salespeople that are kind of driving that with the installers, right? Because we I know far too many
installers that would just be like, "Well, it's not on the work orders, so I'm not going to do it."
So, if the sales team isn't ahead of things, kind of. Well, and that's what also, you
know, is important is that there's a communication around work orders with retailers. It's one of the problems I
see a lot. They get this paperwork order. It's like a static document and they go perform that work order. There's
no floor prep, so they don't do anything. Like, you know, there's other ways out
there and trade tap obviously being one of them, but there's other ways out
there to communicate. Send a damn text message to the salesperson. get it on
record that you think this needs floor prep. Don't just do it. That is the plight of my life with even at our
company is installers not communicating with what they think they should what
they think needs done until after it's installed and said, "Well, it needed skimm coded, but it wasn't on." You
know, we don't hear that. We get a chat that says, "Hey, this needs floor prepped." They send a picture and then
you look at it. We call the project, you know, our our client. We say, "Hey, we're going to have to, you know, grind
and skim code or whatever the scenario." And send them a price,
change order to the to the uh installer to do the work and it it it works. You
got to have communication back and forth. It can't just be salesman says do this and you do this.
Otherwise, you're not acting as a professional. That's my opinion. You know, I I do have a perfect example of what you just laid out there, and it
happened this week. Uh yeah, what's today? Tuesday. It happened yesterday. It's Tuesday.
It's Tuesday. Whatever. I say it funny. It's okay. The um uh one of the
companies we still do labor only for um I'm just going to say her name's Jenna. Been working with her for I don't know,
many years now. I sent her a a a labor quote and I specified some product and said, "Hey,
this is what I need." And she's emails me. She's like, "Why do we need that? We have this." So, she calls me and says,
"Look, that's right. We talked over the weekend because it bothered her that much." That's right. She said, "Hey,
could you please call me if you have a couple minutes?" and she says,"I know I'm going to sound really dumb and I
really feel like I should understand this, but could you explain to me why
we're not just using 888 or Sherox for this? Um, why you expect, you know,
PrimeL and some ME product?" I said, "Well, gladly help you understand and I'm
surprised that you haven't asked that. We just removed a mudbed in an entry."
uh that was there existing and it was failing. We have to go pretty deep. I
know that this product right here has been working for us for years. I know you guys typically stock it on the shelf. So I instead of you ordering
something special, I want to use this primer, this patch to do our initial fill. And this is and this is why. It's
got more aggregate. It dries a little bit quicker. I can shape it. You know, my depth uh that we're going is ranging
from a half inch down to two inches. You know, so on and so forth. and she was just like, "Thank you. I've been so
afraid to ask the difference between that and I know that when I submit this to the client, they're going to ask and
I want to be able to explain it without saying, let me have Jose come out here or let me talk to Jose first." I was
like, "That's fantastic. Well, if you ever want to sit down and talk about products and limitations, happy to do
so." And she's just so eager to learn. Well, that's the role of the that's the role of the installer is to at least bring it
up because a lot of times the salespeople, they don't see the substrate. Um, and in defense of the
salespeople, they don't if you don't even when I go look at a job, I can't like magically see through the the
flooring to see what the substrate looks like. I mean, once it gets demoed and you're doing the work or uh in a remodel
scenario, in a new construction scenario, you don't ever see that on drawings, right? It's just
assume that it's going to be poured and nice and smooth and all of that. And what it I mean there's
plenty of new construction commercial work we go to and the concrete's chattered to death and the only choice
we have is to run a grinder over it and then skim coat it. And they're like, "Well, why can't you just skim coat it?"
Well, I'm just going to make the mountains higher and the valleys. It's I grind it first and then do one
coat or I put 24 coats on it. Like your choice. Yeah, I put six coats or I put
one. And uh I know Daniel's probably itching to catch up on some of these.
I am since since Dwayne is on right now, I do have to let him know that
repping. Yeah, ain't nothing to it but to prove it. So, uh
Nate says that manufacturer recommendations, manufacturer requirements, and industry standards are
not interchangeable. And I think you'll see that on a lot of manufacturer stuff. It's or
industry standard stuff, I should say, where you know you're going to get certified or trained or something and then it always says refer to
manufacturer specifications, right? It's that one always supersedes everything,
you know. And then the the some of these other guys are
uh talking about other floor prep areas or floor prep like Ardex has a great
Ardex Academy. Great y stuff. Like that's what I'm saying. Go to Ardex. Go to Sherox uh and get their
training. I don't think they do it in Florence, Alabama anymore. But the the fact is is
you can go get those two and go get uh NFCT and then you are like a I mean you
are set. You learn something different at everything that you take. Yeah. Oh, and his perspective, too. And
and you know, the language that each individual tech reps, they all speak the
same basic foundational language, but it it does resonate with individuals
differently. You might find someone Well, there's different product lines. Yeah. Like you were just talking about it,
Jose. I mean, I I don't know what scenario you're in, but we were doing a
uh courthouse where we tore out a bunch of corey tile. Well, the GC tore out a
bunch of corey tiles on a four to 6 inch mudset, depending on the area. And
they're like, we don't want to tear all this out. And I'm like, I wouldn't want to either. They
Let's figure something out. Primaril diluted
couple of couple of goes with that. Yeah. Increasing the primaril and re reducing
the delusion each step until it quits accepting stuff and then we drug it with
you know not to be a that this is a mi video because they don't sponsor us but
this is just what happened. Not yet. They better be watching though. Hey, if you're watching Mape, you better
get on board. Um, but you know, drug it with quick patch.
Perfectly flat floor, then go lay the tile.
Boom. Quick patch is a great substrate for for ceramic tile and mortar. It just bonds
like nobody's belief. Wonderful. Turned out wonderful. It's
lasted. This is years ago. And so there's different products for different scenarios. I'm working with Sherox to
call them, you know, give them a little uh uh uh plug plug here uh on a job that needs
self-level and we got to mitigate. It's part of the specs. And I'm like, let's do the whole thing. The you know, ML,
what is it? Mob or ML. Oh, I forget the the product name, but
it's moisture and moisture and leveling allin one,
right? All in one. Yeah. The need for speed is what they were calling it. And it it on a phase job like this is,
it's like you you we're saving days per phase
using that. So, there's different per phase. Look at that. Days per phase. Um, so there's different
that's why you go to more than just one and uh you will learn different
techniques. I remember talking to Puit about his his uh I mean he was a sub he wanted to do I think he would love to do
nothing than travel around de doing demo and self-leveling.
There is some people that do that. Rometo was talking about, you know, we were talking about different systems and that's what he says, education through
training uh to get, you know, the substrate uh prepped properly or just shower
systems, right? Cuz every shower system is going to be a little bit different. And going to those uh I just went to one
last week, couple weeks ago on um something new that that I've never seen
before. course. I was like, "Yeah, go check out Go check out Go check him out."
Uh, I I do want to call attention just a little bit to Romero's comment because he his whole comment is like one thing I
always tell my customers, my money's money's on the prep. My money's in the prep. Whether it's
prepping my guys through education and training, I love that. uh or getting,
you know, actual technical training through subfloor prep, proper subfloor
preparation, whatever. It's in the prep, right? So, I liked his play on that.
What Doug says right here, you know, just looking at a piece of of table saw
underneath a piece of Nora or on a sheet vinyl or something, right? And it looks like a mountain. So, it's it's not even
in the prep. It's like you got to be very thorough even when you're sweeping and cleaning up.
Yeah. Yeah. I like what he says and it's freaking true. A l the littlest pebble under a V a VCT
or an you know a 2 millimeter LVT or a a sheet vinyl like Nora. It does.
Oh my goodness. It looks like you just didn't even care. And you could have like five pieces that size under.
That's why I've never subscribed to the I mean, we still want a clean floor, but
that's also why I've never subscribed to the the um spray adhesives at our company.
Oh, dude. Because it's it's hard one. Yeah. It's your last uh your last security before
you put the floor down. Yeah. And they'll tell you, well, it's not, you know, your adhesive isn't meant
to clean your floor. I get that. Like, we clean, but it does. But at the end of the day, you do a
great job cleaning and then you trial it. You're it is an insurance. Plus,
it just, you know, it's how I was trained. I'll leave it at that.
Spray adhesives. He never knew how much he didn't know about prep until he went to that uh Shon
class with CFI. Yeah. That that class opened up a whole new revenue source for him. It's because you
a lot and this is crazy to me, right? Because we've been self-leveling for so long, but there's so many guys out there
that are like, "Oh, self-leveling, I'm not going to do it because it's going to fail." It's like that's a horrible mindset
because if you could self-level every job, if everyone could self-level every
single job, we would be like they do such a better spot. You remember uh you
remember what what uh I forget the conference but um uh what's his name that
Thomas Thomas yeah with with Sherox he was
doing a presentation he said you know it was like every one of the jobs are in in
Germany are just broom finished and then we self-level them all like this this thing
of coming here and just going directly over concrete was new to him.
That's how it was here. Seriously, there just make it just broom finish. It's
rough and perfect and you prime and throw down your self-leveler and you got just a great floor afterwards. That
would be gorgeous, right? Says that they're doing new baggage claim at his airport. Didn't
want to demo the quarry tile. So, prime it and self-level. Yeah. Good to go. saves a lot of time.
So, we got Doug talking about Well, that's another thing. MC Rapid, is that what you were
referring to earlier? No, no, MC Rapid is Artex.
Yeah. Um, and that's a moisture, I believe.
Yeah. Moisture um barrier. Yeah.
I've completed every Ardex seminar there is. It gave me so much knowledge about
prep and install. There you go. So guys, like we're on we're going down the the
floor prep deal, but that's because if you look at the all the comments, it is the foundation of selling anything and
any flooring. This is the first thing. This is the first solution you have to sell. whether you're an installer or a
salesman. And just a quick shout back to salesman being trained. I think every
salesman should have to get a technical training like a you know go through CFIs. I don't know if an ASCT has one,
but I know CFI has a a course. I know that uh there's uh another I think PFT
has one maybe. But like the bottom line is there's like just technical certifications or
tech like with I know certificates you can get with that the heat weld and flash code one we have
it you can do just the training. So we have um like manufacturer reps and
inspectors and salespeople coming through there just to see what actually goes into it. So that way they know.
Especially, I I think it's useful with the inspectors and the salespeople because they don't know, right? And then
when you're inspecting something, when you see it done and how it's supposed to be done, right, you can really dissect
what's going wrong with it. Yeah. And Dwayne says, "It's important to get
to know your reps from each company. Rely on them to tell you which product to use for every type of install, right?
always cover your a with their warranty. I'm not gonna pull
a call and start start cussing. Let me do it for you. Cover your ass. Yeah, there you go. Uh
but and and well one thing that I I also tell
I was just going to make the I agree with Dwayne but at the same time if it's
the technical department I trust I'm not hey all my sales rep that are out there
uh you know don't hate me for this but I don't follow my sales rep's
recommendations for everything. I talk to the technical department. I get to know my sales rep. I let them know. I
use them for sales. But technical stuff, hey, what to do here or there, I'm
getting a hold of the tech department at whatever company I'm dealing with if I
need to know any information about that and I'm reading their documents. I've been led astray by sales reps because
they don't want to lose the sale or, you know, they have a they have, you know, in commercial world, you guys know what
I'm talking about. like they don't want to lose the spec because they have a more stringent
prep requirement or what you know there's these dynamics in there and you're not talking about small sales
where it's a a th00and or 2,000 foot house. you're talking 70, 80, 200, 300,000 square feet
of product on some of these deals and they're trying to, you know,
make sure that they don't get kicked out by by an architect going and looking at another product. What I'm getting at is
make sure when when Dwayne says CYA cover your rear end, I I believe part of
that is know your tech reps or at least have the the
information on how to get a hold of the tech rep. It's pretty simple. Go to the website, go to technical
and call them. I know you you've you've probably done it too where you call one of your tech reps and or even a sales
rep, you know, on the material side and then you're like, "Hey, this customer is asking for this. What
can we do here?" And they'll be like, "I can come out there and give them the rundown for you if you want." It's like
most of the time that's kind of overkill, but if it's a huge project, it's like, "Yeah, come over here." Yeah.
Let them know. You know, one shot. Go, go ahead, Jose.
I was gonna say we're fortunate for for us like um our let's call them our area or regional sales reps for prep material
are very involved in the technical side too. So there is there is kind of a
hybrid uh relationship there um from from the some of the prep manufacturers
that that we deal with. They're also the regional sales reps and they don't sell to us direct but
they call them sales rep. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So PR, you know, he he tossed,
"Yeah, I should have said I don't know any sales. I don't know any sales reps." And then half, we know what you meant.
Well, the um
the real like to to tie it all back to the topic is like that is our
foundational solution. We should all be thinking this way in flooring and and how we provide, you know, the best floor
prep possible because then your other products, you know, go, you know, it doesn't matter
what you are installing, the other products go down better with proper floor prep. So, and of course you've
read the comments and we've read them off on some of them about, you know, the failures of the floor prep failures like
that those being part of the the you know, like you can install the
product just fine. If the floor prep's not right, then it it looks like hell and it can get rejected. That's bottom
line. So, you're only doing part of your job if you just learn how to install the product, but you don't really understand
Floor Pro. That's a little preachy, I think, couldn't it? But, uh, so start selling.
It is the truth. So, start selling solutions. Um,
outside of just floor prep, what other uh things come to mind?
I'm I'm going through one right now where we were labor only on something
and then afterwards um it was an agreement with us and the other company.
Okay, we don't really want to service them, so you guys can still service them. So, we've been getting calls for
that. And they're they're like, "All right, this is going on with, you know, this carpet. It's an issue because it's
in behavioral health, right?" and they put carpet tile in. Um, granted they did
wet set the carpet tile, so it's not going anywhere, but you can still, them
kids will pick at whatever they can get their fingers on, right? And um, so I I took some,
and this is just becoming a commercial for every manufacturer at this point. So, I'm I took some J&J kinetics,
stuck it on um a piece of underllayment, and took it over there for them so they can see it, they can feel it, they can
walk on it. And um by at at this point, you know, I'm the the girl that I'm used
to dealing with or she had her her boss get involved now. And then I'm talking
to them about this stuff and he was he just looked at her and he was like, "It's crazy, the the stuff that can be
accomplished when you know what you're dealing with, right?" They were like, "Why didn't you bring this up when you
know they were install when you were installing that?" And I said, "We didn't install that. That wasn't my contract."
And she was like, "Oh, yeah, that's right." But it's it's stuff like that that could
have been mitigated already. So that way, I mean, they already paid for it once. It is a huge issue and now we're
talking about replacing it in sections probably down the line. And it's not
going to be cheap. Yeah. A rework is never cheap, brother.
Well, and that type of stuff, you know, all my architect friends out there, that's really
where commercial is just a funny business because the real who's the real
salesman. The real salesperson is whoever's specking. Yeah. the desire specifying it, you
know, and so to think through that kind of thing where you're not put I'm doing a behavioral health a massive behavioral
health uh hospital here in Witchaw and
you know they got carpet tile only in the admin areas like everything else is either sheet vinyl with pick resistant
cocking or pick proof cocking or tile or LVT all you know
set permanent set like that
putting uh carpet tile like kinetics is a good example because there's not much
to pull you know a CNA 6 foot or a Shaw I a Shaw still makes their six foot
goods but I can't I haven't installed or sold a long time but they used to have a
six foot rubber back then you know the the fiberglass for stuff
yeah you you're not pulling a fiber out of it you know, with fingers. You're not
going to be able to pick the seams apart. Everything welds together like on a, you know, a CNA. I guess it's a
tarquet now, but you, as old folks know, a CNA, you know, the the rubber
backings, which is not real rubber, I know, but for purposes of understanding,
they're actually welded together, right? It's not a seam seal, it's a seam weld.
All those things are solutions in that type of a scenario. and some someone for
the benefit of the owner sell that solution. Sell the solution that best fits the the use case and not just
trying to sell. I think that's really where what we're driving for. And you
know there are some retailers out there that are trying to get their salespeople more up to date. There's uh one of our
clients that um you know really want all of their salespeople to understand
the proper installation from a high level. Not that they have to
have the ability to do it themselves, but understand what what does good floor prep look like? What does good install
look like? So that you can, you know, QA your projects.
Yeah. And then that that way you can go through and even if it's going through on like a
remodel and letting them know that and we've been through this, right?
We've talked about it before. This is not a bad product. This is actually a really good product. It's just probably
wasn't installed correctly. They skipped these steps, right? And then it's you're
they automatically think it's they're throwing that manufacturer whole manufacturer under the bus. I'm never
going to go with them again. And it's like let's just back it up a little bit so we can let's reel it in so we can
just talk about it. Pump the brakes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's where that's where an ed uneducated installer and saleserson
team up or even architect or designer, right? It's a team effort to put the
wrong product in the wrong place for the usage and the type of audience. And now
you you mix that in with someone who is not necessarily taking
not using the the the the standardized specs and then the manufacturer specs and not taking it to heart, not using it
for what it's supposed to be. And well, I've installed this before and we don't
really need that part, that step. we can skip that. And then you get the
situation where the flooring is failing. They think automatically, ah, the installer the installer was bad. Then
you find out the installer is not bad. Oh, the product sucks then, like Daniel said. And then
what can we put here that's going to work well? Technically, this would have
been great. This would have serviced your area great. There's a couple things that were
overlooked and that's why it's failing. Well, and sometimes just pointing out the pros and cons, right? And it's
that's providing solutions. I mean, hey,
you know, why why protect all, for example, in commercial kitchens? Oh,
there's these benefits to it, but it's not all roses and and yeah,
you know, flowers. There are some some issues there uh that you got to know how
to deal with. Uh, but you know, we just did one of those in a uh country club's
kitchen and one of the You never know what people love. One of the sue chefs
came up to me and was like, "Dude, I love it." Gives me another uh
selling point for that product when I see it appropriate. But he's like, "I haven't had to replace one of my knives.
When I drop my knife, it doesn't break the tip. The the old floor
was Cory Tal would break the tips on his knife if he dropped one of his big big
uh knives and then he has to get a new knife. So, it's just little things like that.
Kevin says he's late to the show, but anyone can call him anytime. He's always there to help.
And I found that to be true. Kevin Kevin's a good dude and he has a
deep knowledge. Um, you know, a lot of the and and Kevin, by
the way, is with QEP Roberts. So, you want to talk about someone who really does understand adhesives and such like
those types of deals. Kevin's great for that. He's not only a master installer, like, you know, well, with us, he's, I
believe, elite artisan in carpet, which is the top level on the VTI. and uh he I
mean he's superior in his knowledge set. Um but he can help you through those
those you know concerns with your LVP, your carpet, those types of deals when
it comes to uh adhesives and such as well as installation. But you know
what we're really talking about is trying to make sure that you have the right solution. And that's you know as
you're selling solutions now you're talking about adhesives. So you might have the right product, but you also
have to there may adhesive options. And we were on a project with that too,
right? It's like, well, these moisture readings are coming back at this, so we can either do some mitigation type stuff
or we can start looking at different adhesives that'll work, right? It's it's
it's knowing that you you got it's not all in one basket. you can go
through and give multiple different solutions. And I think that's kind of what we're talking about this whole
thing, right? It's we're not selling products, we're selling solutions. And
then you got to educate whoever you're dealing with on why they should go with this solution because sometimes the
cheapest thing isn't always the best thing, right? It's and we've talked
about this with us before too. It's
the low price isn't always the the best option.
Well, I'd almost say it's rarely. I mean, I the the reason I say that is
the I think I've said this on the podcast before, but I I was told by a guy that
built over in Europe that they would take the bids, add them all together,
and come up with the average, and whoever's closest to the average is who won the job,
not the low bid. Now, whether that's true or not, I'm not sure, but that's what I was told. And it
makes if if it is uh like I said, whether it's true or not, I'm not 100% sure, but it sure makes a hell of a lot
of sense. You got people then bidding the job to do it right and not to do it the
cheapest. And a lot of I think you would bring out the the when we when you're
not just going with the cheapest, but you're going with the right bid. That's where that's why I preach the VTI and
and and I want you guys to leverage that is because
when you're able to, you know, prove your worth, you take yourself out of
just this price war and then you provide some solutions and you're not selling
for a cost anymore. You're selling for a value, right? There's a huge difference there.
Yeah, there's a big difference between well and void of any like whether it's
certifications, some type of proof that you are what you say you are uh as a
professional flooring installer for example. Um void of proof, you only have price. And
then you got price and you got like how the the these soft things like touchy
feely. How h how well do you make them feel when you're talking to them about their job? Uh there was a guy here in
Witchah that just got sent to jail uh for taking a bunch of people's money and
never doing work. He was I think that's that happens everywhere because I hear he was a great salesman,
wonderful salesman to, you know, talk people, convince them they know he knew
what they were he was doing and then get them to give him money and then just never did the work. That that is like
consumers. I'm I that's why I'm so confident that the BTI will catch fire with consumers
when we release it. consumer world is because consumers they
they would never do that with a car for example, you know, uh in other purchases. They don't just, you know,
willy-nilly like take the best like we look at car salesmen as like, "Yeah,
he's a car salesman." That's not a compliment. You know what I mean? Like if you get sold a car, you're you feel
like you don't feel great about it. you know, you I think that's buy the car based off of knowledge and
proof of its its performance, whether it's a Carfax or, you know, consumer
report on that car. Like that that moves your your uh purchase more than the
salesman trying to sell you the car, right? The old days of car salesmans are just about gone. Why?
Carfax. You're not going to sell me that car. It got wrecked in 2019.
Show me the Carfax. You know, it was a part of that knowledge of the of the Yeah, it was in a flood in
Mississippi and now you're trying to sell me this car in Nebraska, right?
That Carfax, that proof of the the past history of that car has conditioned the
consumer to not get sold anymore. They're buying these car they're buying cars based on the perceived they're
they're investigative and perceived value as opposed to someone selling them. That's where I'd like our flooring
industry to be is you're hiring these your your installer based on their
actual provable artifacts so to speak what their BTI says they are and not the
the the salesmanship. And then pe then consumer doesn't get talked out of money. Like people with great BTIs and
good reputation scores can't a they can't afford to screw people over there the value that's right there.
I think when you look at it right you'll have even those because there's things happen right you and something will
eventually happen but those guys with that higher BTI will be the ones that are like yep it happened. Let me take
care of it because We're we're the ones that are always trying to do things right. And then yeah, the the guys that
are just trying to go under the radar are is that tail light warranty type of stuff where it's like, well, someone
else's problem now. I already got paid. We've had that instance a couple times, right? Even though it's well past the
install warranty, we see that we might have done something that wasn't 100%. We
just we just like we'll take care of we'll just take care of it. I got a I I
even when it's not our fault, I had a customer uh send me an email uh
hey, what what could cause this? And it's cracking at the at the cove on a sheet vinyl. Um and they have the doctor
they've got no it's the doctor's little stool. They've got that right next to it. Well, the wheel is just pounding
that spot, right? They don't have the guard above the wheel to that hits the wall before the wheels hit the cove. And
I was like, well, you know, that won't happen unless you
stop the the the doctor's car, his uh little uh stool from just running into
your cove all the time. Uh get a different doctor's chair is my advice, and then that can be fixed pretty
easily, but it won't continue to happen. And it took four years for it to happen, but it only has to get bumped and bumped
and bumped and bumped, right? It's gonna eventually happen regardless of how tight that is to the
cove stick, right? Oh, for sure. I mean, co stick is a it's either rubber or it's vinyl, right? It's
got give. So does the sheet vinyl. And you know
there's so many factors that yeah it it my point to all that is just that you
know the people who care about their work they care about their reputation they care about their score their
ranking I should say and where they sit in their industry uh and the good guys
always want to just climb to the top you know uh that's one thing I love about being at convention and around CF FI and
around uh all of the training organizations frankly is that those are the people that I think um and have
experienced they want to claw their way to the top. You know that by any means necessary they really want to be the
best and not just in their own little world. I don't remember which podcast we
were on, but we had some guy like, "Oh, I don't need this was a long time ago, but you know, talking about training and
not needing it and how much work he does and how good he is and all this." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's it. Just in your
own little world, dude. You're not the best to the rest of us." Like, you know,
can't always be the squeaky wheel. You got to be able to prove it. Someone somewhere is gonna going to hold you to
it and you're going to have to figure it out and show it. Jose says a prepared installer or contractor doesn't just
know how to install a product. They take the time to understand what's being speci specified before the installation
even begins. Reviewing specified materials, manufacturer requirements, compat compatibility, installation
methods, and industry standards is just as important as having the right tools and skills on the job site.
Well put. Well put. I think all of our
really good quotes from the these last few months are just going to be everything from Jose.
Well, he thinks through his comments pretty well and and I it's I think it's clear that he wants
to do great work and he wants his guys to do great work and he wants happy
customers and he you know I I the feeling that I love the most
when I was installing was standing back and I've said this before and you guys have said it too, but you stand back
after you're done, oh man, that's like that looks good. And but part of that
pride as I've kind of contemplated on is not just how good it looks in the
moment. It's like I know that was done right. You know what I mean? Like and I know
that was done right. Would you come and look at this? Would you come and look at this? Look. Look what I did. Look what I tell me I did a good job.
Yeah. Tell me I did a good job. Tell daddy you did a good job. And that that's the thing too, right?
And then when something does go wrong, we're we're never the type of people that'll be like, "Why are they calling
me?" It's we I always answer the phone like, "Hey, what's going on?" Like, and it's nine times out of 10, it's nothing
bad, but you always get that feeling like, "Hey, what's what's happening?" All nothing. But but when you do get
that call, it's like, "Hey, you know, I'll have someone out there to take a look at things, so see if we can get it buttoned up because, you know, it
shouldn't be like that." Yep. always, you know, it's a good feeling to
to know that when you're when you're presenting solutions and
doing everything right, the phone call you you're you get isn't always something bad. You can answer the phone and be like, "Yeah, hey, what's going
on?" Like Daniel said, you know, it's when we're going back and we're fixing uh existing issues or trying to solve uh
a problem, an ongoing issue. You get the phone call, you're like, "Okay, maybe what we just did didn't work. Let's
what's going on?" And then, yeah, this is what's going on here. What happened? What can we do to fix that? Let's go
take a look at it. See what we come up with again. Yeah. Well, and when you did it right,
like, you know, you did it right, you're like, well, something else, something's going on there.
Something's going on. Let's figure it out together. Something's going on. I got a It's like a It's like a delve in. We have a job
right now that we Everything went well. It's a Nora project, but we went out I
believe it's Nora, but we went out and um looked at some problems, pulled up one of the and the the concrete's like a
rust color all of a sudden. They were like, "Ah, what's going on there?
What what is that?" You know, they're like, "Well, the moisture test didn't
Well, the moisture test was fine. It's not testing for contam contaminants down
in the concrete, but like we're trying to figure out what that is, but you know, all the steps were followed. So
now it's like it's either conditions, sight conditions, things out of your control, and you can only test so much.
Like you're you're not going in and core drilling every job and sending it into like here a company called Terracon to
test the what's in the concrete and make sure there's nothing in it, right? There's certain assumptions we have to
take. You test the pH, you test the moisture, you you make sure there's no, you know,
the things within our realm of testing. But this is a new one. It's like
something happened now. We're like all curious trying to figure out what it is, taking samples, sending to
right additives in the concrete lab. Yeah. Who knows? I have no idea.
It's the first I've ever seen it ever. And that's another beauty of flooring. You you'll get surprised. I've been
doing this since I was a a guy just right out of basic training essentially
for the National Guard started flooring. So that's a this is a first for me. But
there's something there causing some issue. But the good thing is we can fall
back and be like, "Yeah, well, we know it was installed by the book. So it's not installation issue. It is a sight
condition issue that no installer could have like
there was no visible problem with the concrete when we installed. No moisture uh to speak of. Obviously there's always
moisture in concrete but not excessive and the pH was normal.
Maybe they're cleaning it with pineol. So find out. But the cool thing is you do
know you when you do install it right and you take the right steps. It's It's nice to kind of like be able to like,
well, at least we know we installed it correctly. Now, what are the other problem? What are the other possible problems? You know what I mean? You
don't have to focus Yeah. You don't have to focus on that as much.
Well, Daniel kicked up here the Synergy Conference uh convention, joint
convention between the FCICA and CFI FC.
Oh, FCITS as well. Um, so yeah, like a month away.
So down in Chattanooga, uh, me and Jose will be there. We're going to be shooting the huddle from there. Uh,
we're in try to pipe Daniel in for for that maybe. But, uh, come check it.
Check out the convention. It's always a great time. It's also, just like I was saying earlier, you're around people who
are clawing their way to the top. Uh you'll probably come across some of the pre some of the previous you know
national winners at the installation competitions. It's a great environment to be
gathering your network and have installers around you that'll build you up and encourage you to go get training,
go get certified. Yeah, take that thing in increase your value to the
marketplace. That's you get that encouragement at these uh these types of shows. So come check it out
and and we're not going to lie, you increase your value like that and then the
biggest thing is learning everything and then teaching after that.
Yeah, teaching is uh teaching is key. That's I I I have a lot of happiness
around, you know, the years that I taught and and had a few guys that, you know, they were able to go provide for
their families and and and do pretty damn well in flooring just from being
trained over the years with me. You know, it's a good deal. I wish I would have been early on in my career uh a lot more
tied into the installation uh community and all the trainings and
capabilities around that. I didn't get into that till probably a decade into my
installation career, maybe even a little bit more. So, that's why I push it here so much is because I wish I would have
had that early on and been in an environment where other installers are like, "Yeah, go do that. Go get trained.
Go get certified." Yeah. And I think what you don't know. I think to close it up, I just do need to bring up that uh
you need to learn how to say no to some of these customers, clients, whatever
you call them, because too many people are just agreeing to to get work. And I say
that because I don't I don't remember if we talked about it, but I know we talked about it. I went and looked at um a
biolife and every scene was failing.
And sorry, I'm laughing at that because that's like his fancy way of saying he had to go poop.
No, I think that's his way of saying I'm I'm baiting my gear.
But when I gave him pricing, right, and I talked to the manufacturers and the
manufacturer was like, "Yeah, this is basically a full replacement." And then they came back and was like, "No, we
only need these sections." And it was like three 10 foot sections of seams
fixed. And I said, "You're talking to the wrong to the wrong guy." Like, I'm
not going to just go try and button something up like that.
Mhm. I'm doing one to add one story.
Doing a um a repair at a pizza place where it's got Protect All. We didn't
install the protect all, but we did the carpet and LBT on it. And uh the
protects felling under the fryers really bad, like massive gaps.
And um so I you want to talk about a solution? You know, one of the things that
we have done is under those friars put the 8 inch.
Look, I hope all the manufacturers send us some money because we sure have been talking about you guys a lot in this
episode. But um put 8 in protect all under the fryers with an 8 inch uh
pre-drilled counter sunk sheet of stainless steel
and E6100. That whole sheet of
right down right on top of the 8 inch and then it's the same height as the
quarter inch that's everywhere else. And that'll protect the the the protect all
from the fry from the uh fryers. Yeah, because that grease gets everywhere. Like
and it's hard to it's it's hard to just call the the flooring didn't I mean you
get hot enough grease dropping on a even on a rapid weld seam which I've yet to I
mean you could tow a truck with a rapid weld seam, you know. So,
you know, the the those are solutions. Uh that's a pretty
fancy solution. Long story. Uh pretty fancy solution, but it's one that uh you know,
well, my customer, me and this guy just locked it in because we had the same issue right by a
fryer and then come to find out it's they were putting a pan in front of it and then letting the hot oil run into
that pan instead of letting it cool down when they were doing changes and stuff. So, it's like just that one spot was
like you said, it's going to shrink. Mhm. And you can't just It's not a quick fix,
especially when everything starts coming apart and and Well, and that's that's my bigot. You want to talk about solution. I got to figure out how to get the grease off
concrete in a 4-day period out of the like get that.
But that's also why I was like, well, we'll take this. We just put the eighth inch there. Hopefully, we get all the
contaminants out in time, but put the eighth inch there. We'll glue it down, obviously, epoxy it down. But we're
going to have a sheet of of stainless steel that's pre-drilled and
counter sunk heads, and we'll drill every every one of those out. So, and
put our anchors in, and then you have a mechanically fastened
solution right there at the same time as everything being glued, you know? So,
because you can buy E6100 in gallon buckets, you know, gallon cans, just pour that stuff out. We'll spread that
just like just like a full adhesive. I don't know if you but Yep.
I don't know if you've used 61 I know you guys have, but you haven't used 6100. Dude, that stuff is
ridiculously good. So, it's a silicone, but it dries a little hard compared to
most silicones. But man, you want to talk about something that will grab, be clear, and you you would have to take a
jackhammer to it to break it loose. Yes. Yeah.
First started using it. We have went over, but I hope you guys uh appreciate that and uh enjoyed the
conversation. It was it was uh a lot of a lot of comments and a lot of uh a lot
of back and forth. It was great, guys. So, thank you for joining us today. If you catch us on any social, interact
with us. That is what keeps this podcast going is you guys sharing it, you guys
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See you guys.
