The Huddle - Episode 220. The Difference Between Teaching a Trade and Developing a Career
Teaching someone how to install flooring is important. But if we want people to stay in this industry, learning the technical side of the trade can't be where their development ends.
A career needs somewhere to go. It needs opportunities to improve, people willing to mentor, clear ways to build credibility, and a reason to keep investing in yourself year after year. Without that path, we may be teaching people how to do the work without showing them what a future in the trade can actually look like.
In this episode of The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose discuss the difference between training someone for a job and developing them for a career. They talk about mentorship, continuing education, professional growth, and the role employers and industry leaders play in helping the next generation see flooring as more than just a way to earn a paycheck.
Toward the end of the episode, Kevin Keefe joins the conversation and adds his perspective on what it takes to build and support long-term careers in the industry.
Getting someone into the trade is only the first step. If we want a stronger workforce ten or twenty years from now, we also have to give people a reason and a path to stay.
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[music] What is up guys? Welcome back to the huddle, the number one podcast in flooring. We're here every week, every
single week to help you guys gain forward progress in your career. Simply put, we are here to help you guys win.
For all our new viewers, welcome to the team. What's up, Mr. Jose?
What's going on, brother? Well, I made it. just uh living life and and
uh having a having a good time doing it, [laughter] you know, trying to
good try what my buddy used to always say, trying to make a million bucks and
change the world. Yeah. [laughter] I think that was Pinky in the brain, wasn't it?
I don't know. [laughter] What are we doing today? Carlos, what's up, brother?
I didn't think I was Well, it looks like um Well, you're here now.
Yeah. Looks like Carlos wins.
Carlos wins first comment of the day. Well, guys, thank you for joining us
today. I want to uh do a quick sponsor shout out to Pro- Installer Magazine,
Trade Tap, along with the VTI. Go check out TradeTap at trade-tap.com.
Go check out Proinstaller magazine. I implore you guys to get involved with a couple of these easy to do things. And
uh there's going to be some some more info. Keep a keep an eye out for on our
socials. uh for both the huddle and uh in particular trade tap for some some uh
updates and um let's just dive right into today's
topic. The difference between teaching a trade and developing careers. This topic, just to kind of clarify, is kind
of based around flooring companies and um [snorts] you know
h how our industry goes about you know workforce development. Um, I could tell
you, uh, from a a lot of work in this area
that, you know, nearly everybody hires subcontractors, even a lot of the union
shops and that that are tight. I mean, they they're going to get their job done, you know. Um
and so I think you know what's important to understand is is a that and if you
are hiring primarily subcontractors you have got to
set your guys up my my what we do with our crews is we counsel with them on
how to run their business because they are a business. Um, but that's not really developing a career. But I would
say you still need to support those guys in um creating opportunities for
training, creating opportunities for them to get better. Think of your GC in
your area. oftentimes they have like estimators roundtables or estimate like
Jed Dunn here uh that you know they'll have an estimators forum where all
estimators from all scopes get together and talk strategy and different ways of
of uh you know being a good estimator. Uh they have safety workshops that they
invite their subs to. You got to kind of think like your GC thinks in creating
opportunities for your subcontractors to get trained and to build their
reputation and uh you know their competencies. So I don't this handsoff
kind of model that most flooring companies take like they're their own company and I I do it because you know
there's a ton of benefits to having subs right you don't have to keep them busy all the time.
uh where it's kind of scalable if you have a good enough, you know, subcontractor network. It's scalable.
So, you can go bid work without trying to figure out how you're going to get it done with your team of of W2 employees.
Uh we have for most of our history had W2 and
1099. Um so it it that varies by market
conditions. Um, but the point is is if if you're using 1099s, you still should
I I highly suggest, and I know a lot of flooring companies out there might be
like, well, you're you're just a peer. Why are you suggesting? Well, because I'm a peer that's been in this business
and and not just the flooring business, but on the other side looking at workforce development and where all
that's going. And it's in it's going to be incredibly hard for you in the future if you don't do this. That's what I'm
telling you. I I can see it. And I'm telling you, if you don't create opportunities for your subs to get
trained by hosting different things and and getting involved with some common
workforce development, you're going to you're going [clears throat] to, you know, have a hard time. One of the
things we're coming out with at Trade Tap is the VTI uh or I'm sorry, Jumpstart. You'll be
able to as a company subscribe to Jumpstart, put up the QR code in your in
your facility, and every single one of your subs will be able to hire off a jump start for free. Uh up to 25
different users you can have uh if you're a company subscriber. That gives
your subs the access to the most the newest talent coming into the industry.
And granted, we're not everywhere uh quite yet, but I can tell you that like
in Ohio, uh we're we're making some good headway and making some good headway in
uh Michigan. And when those guys come out, they need to get a job. And so,
long story short, your subs need to hire good people. And so your qual your
building of their career is really teaching them how to do the business and giving them technical training
opportunities. Is anything I just said uh resonate with
you, Jose, or or do you uh have a variant or a disagreement or
um I mean it all depends on what day of the week it is to to have the disagreement with that, right? Or or the
[laughter] um you know, essentially it doesn't matter if they're subcontractors or employees, right? At
some point, somebody's not going to be happy. At some point, somebody's gonna want to scale up. And if you want them to scale up and have you be part of part
of their growth as well, then you might as well teach them how to do a little bit more than just do the install. And I
think that that's where like the topic comes into play too, right? And um
success can can mean your success 100%. and and and and that's and I think
talking with you years ago, we we had a conversation about um if an employee left, you know, and but they joined on
as a subcontractor, you already knew what their capabilities were because you helped you helped mold that um and and
you helped facilitate their growth. So, you understand their limitations, which doesn't necessarily take anything away
from you, right? But it gives you a it gives you a platform that is a a very
established platform to start on um with a relationship as a as a a a contractor
versus employee. And I think the [snorts] what you said about helping the
subcontractors out and helping them develop into better business owners instead of owning a job. Yeah, 100%.
Right. the um the old the old ways that like where I was brought up where you
don't teach the next person what you know because they'll take your job where
in order for you to scale up you you want to teach someone to take your job, right? So that way you can move on and
so you can start doing something else. If you're that person that's going to do that, you want to be able to move on to
do something else. You want to be able to alleviate your responsibilities so that way you can take on additional
responsibilities to grow different part of the business. Um, and and that's
that's where all that information comes into play. I might shoehorn something in here. Also, if you get good at it, you just
discovered a way that you can scale your business, right? If you get good at improving subs uh performance, their
capabilities, their their skill set, you know, their reputation, like you you
make them a better sub. Now, you you've got a a playbook where you can continue
to do that. Uh others are doing their part right now, but it it cannot be void. It's not and or I mean it's not
or. So it's not, you know, somebody in the industry or you, it's and you.
Yes. Trade tap is doing an immense amount of work and making great strides in in
doing um a lot of this workforce development and setting systems in place for everybody. But it's not only
you know it's not or it it has the dealers and the retailers and the
commercial contract everybody has to get involved with this kind of thing. I do like what Denise added here uh just
creating a positive environment with your for your subs and that's really
employees overall because I was going to kind of dive into the employee side after we talk about the sub side a
little bit. Um, but you know, case in point, if you have a
if you've had a subcontractor have a problem on a
project and you did not take that as a learning opportunity, it was just the blame game. Those are the types of
things that I'm talking about. Um, you know, we all have difficult projects.
Um, I know that some people don't like the word partner. in its truest sense of the word
partnership. I get it. It's not a true partnership legally, but what it is is a
partnership in that project for sure. Like any time you two sides have to do
their part to make something successful, that is a
partnership, you know. Um Yes. And in our business like you guys up
there, you have to do your job. And when you hire subs, which is rare, but when you do, you have they have to do their
job. Now, that same thing applies um or do their part, right? You got to
schedule, deliver materials, make sure it's a safe work environment, probably moisture testing, you know, processing
change orders and pay apps and like all this stuff. and they have to properly
install the floor and they have to get to the job on time. You know,
I like what uh Mark says, leaders uh well, I think what he's saying uh to be
a leader, you leaders like train their replacements.
leaders uh by being a leader leader in in
training your replacement essentially. And that was just what you said earlier.
You got to be willing to share the information and let let someone take that over, right? And
um you know, look at uh look at Daniel and myself and even throw Crystal in the mix too, right?
I taught Daniel everything. And even though we learned a lot together, like I taught him everything that I knew up to
a point, right? And if you're teaching someone and they your knowledge base, they you catch up with one another. Now,
now you know you run into the scenario where steel sharp and steel, right? Now you're learning, now you're bouncing ideas off one another. Now, now you're
evolving and then that's what that's what you could that's the only thing you could hope for, right? And you can do
the same thing like um you know it takes a lot of time to find I shouldn't say
that you have to be diligent in finding the right person but
yes you know here at my flooring company my COO does way more of the dayto-day than
I do and it was a lot of stuff that I used to not want to relinquish control over and
if you're an employee in this situation just keep trucking cuz he just kept trucking and willfully taking things
over a little bit. Certain parts that he saw that I could use the help with. And
Ben at Trade Tap does a great job of this as well where he finds ways to take
things off my plate. And when you get someone like that, they they turn into a major piece of your
organization and then you can like train them. So, if you're an employee looking
to increase your game, trust me, do the work first and then the
the recognition or whatever you want to say comes comes after that. Um,
but if you're an employer on that side, you got to learn how to relinquish a
little control. And this goes all the way down to when I installed. Like, I
remember times when I was like, "Nope, you can't. I'm not I don't I don't have time to show you how to cut the seam and
put it together. Just go keep laying out rooms and Oh, dude.
Like cuz back then it was broad loom. I did a ton of commercial broad loom glue down [clears throat]
and I'd just be like, "Nope, go do this." or if I'm doing cheap vinyl and they they want to learn how to like
underscribe or something. I was like, "Ah, this is that my from my point of
view, it was not a um it was not a
um deal where I didn't want to train my replacement. I desperately wanted to
train him to get better. It was more of time things on a time crunch, man. you always
have. It was just like I wanted to get done with the the work and and move it forward. Even as at at that point um in
this particular scenario in my head, I I uh I was an hourly employee, but I loved
having the lowest job cost. I loved it when my boss would come up and say, "You installed that carpet for a dollar a
yard or 85 cents a yard was my cost." Now, this is back in the 90s, granted,
but you know, it was still a scenario where, let's see if Daniel can join us.
Uh, it was still a scenario where I I did want to to teach, but it was a thing of getting the job done. So this idea
got floated that what about companies paying training days just giving the sub
a little a day rate to slow down and train his crew. Now I don't know if that
resonates. It it was an interesting thought um but I don't know how that
could be applied but I thought I'd throw it out there. Uh it was uh the idea was essentially that a flooring company
would pay a sub a week essentially a training day and that was their day to
calm down, slow down from a money perspective and take the time to teach
their helpers even though these are not your employees. Uh but teach the these helpers how to
get better. So, one training day a week, uh, it was like 500 bucks was the idea.
you pay 500 bucks to uh a different crew each week and then you start right back
over to the the you know and and essentially depending on how many crews
you have uh you know you you'd have somewhere around 50 uh training days a
week or a year. you know, that's a I want to say we had kind of a similar
thing, but we got invited um to a lot of the u trainings that were hosted at a
supplier um or if some of the the companies that we were doing work for
went labor only, they would invite us to one of their events that they hosted um for for education. And we we loved it.
Um and we've been fortunate enough to where even some of the um
uh some of the vendors would um say, "Hey, we have this product getting ready like we have a influx of this product
being ordered. We don't have qualified installers or would you be interested in taking this education or this training
or going over here and doing this and we will cover the bill? You just got to get there." and you know and it's like will
you trust us enough for that? Of course we Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. Like we'll do it, right? And and
it it was hard looking at the investment opportunity for us because time, right?
Time as a as a sub is money, right? It's less time on the pro on on a project and less time on the floor making dollars.
It was hard at first to understand and accept that that was what was needed of
us at the time in order for us to get to where we were trying to go. But once we
started doing it and you started realizing the benefits from just those two days or that three days and
sometimes that week away from a job site and you were getting hands-on
by some of the the the professionals that that that ended up being worth way more than the
time away from, you know, installing some LVT or some carpet or anything like that. it ended up coming back tfold and
it just I can't express that enough, right? And and that was a decision we had to make and and we would not have
made that decision if the opportunity wasn't presented. Um and I guess present
it's important that the it's important first. You just said that
it would not have happened if you did if the uh invitation was not presented or if the the opportunity was not
presented. So that means correct you as a flooring company or us as a flooring company or all of our flooring
companies out there that consume our product here as the huddle um understand
that you have to create the opportunities for these guys to get trained. And then, you know, another
plug for V the VTI is having that those credentials add upon themselves and turn
into a better installer is obviously everybody's goal. Let me see if we can
get Daniel to join in here one more time. He's he's trying. It just says you're muted, Bubba.
He's out on the road. But so on the W2 side, so one, two,
you know, we kind of talked about Hey, there he is. Bam. Only took 8,000 tries.
Well, you're here now. Do you have anything to add to what we
just talked about, Daniel, or are you just kind of just jumping? Bro, I don't even know. I couldn't hear anything. It wasn't that you you guys
could probably have heard me. I couldn't hear you guys. No. Yeah. Well, even our pre uh pre-pod
technical time didn't uh didn't work out to get you on,
but um well, we're glad to have you now. So, we just got through kind of talking about
1099s and you know, the difference between developing a career and teaching a trade or teaching a trade, develop a
career. You know, these are not ores. They I think they're ands. You know, you
got to teach the technical side or have a way for your installers to have access
to the technical side of the business, which is what we've spent most of our time talking about, as well as
taking the time to teach each of your subs best business practices. We we
actually spend a fair amount of time just doing that. Um, but when do so give
you a chance uh that now that you're on here, Daniel, do you have any uh
thoughts around, you know, how to really develop a career? Even though you're a
1099, you can still have this as a career. Um, it just it changes a bit
now. You got to be a little bit of a business guy and a technical guy. Yeah. And you have to want to learn that
side too at the same time. The the business side.
Yeah. It's not just something that, you know, you can tell anyone, hey, I want
you to do this, too, and this is what you should be doing and learning. They actually have to
want to learn it and spend some time doing it. I mean, you can like, you
know, you can lead them there, but they lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink type of thing.
Yeah, this is true. That kind of ties into what I said, too, about um the opportunity, right? like if
um if if opportunities weren't presented to us, Daniel, as far as uh give an opportunity to attend uh education
classes or having someone invest into us into doing some training um so that way
we could handle specific types of work for them or from their products, uh we
probably never would have looked at it as lucrative. and and and that's what I told Paul and everyone else is that the
opportunity was presented and we said yes and it helped us learn
more which helped us want more which caused us to need to learn more. Well,
it was that Yeah, it was one of those things where you go and do something and been like, man, I've been doing this wrong the
whole time. And then it's you go either go one of two ways. You either, all right, I'm going to start doing it
right, or you still look at them like, these people don't know what the hell
they're talking about. I've been doing this, and I'm never going to stop doing it this way.
Yeah, that group is tough to deal with. Um [clears throat] I I uh every time I encounter them, it's
like they're just waste it's they they view doing it the right way as a waste
of time. Oh yeah. You know, I've heard them like that takes way longer. Why would I do it that
way? Because it's the proper way to do it. I mean because it's the way the it's
supposed to be done by all accords the industry the manufacturer
like what what else do you need because science bro because science
because because it's science. Um but yeah there's plenty of guys that
are like oh that they they teach you how to you got to do it this way that way and the other way and it just takes too
much time. Well, those guys I I would would guess are the
ones that have to go back and rework and redo and redo and redo. Uh I mean not in
all cases, but like I was telling you before we well when I couldn't hear you and then I
tried to be able to hear you again, but I I've been measuring jobs all day and I went and measured this biolife and they
said, "Oh yeah, there's a few seams that need to be, you know, rewelded." And then I go in
there and it's every single seam in that entire place. And now it's like, man,
are they all gapped? Uh, yeah. [laughter]
Yeah. That's the That's the worst thing to see is like, can't you just fill it with weld? And I'm like,
you know, doesn't doesn't work. They did they did the inside corners and they didn't do anything on
the outside corners. This sounds like
Yeah, that type of work. Got to use wood bondo on the outside corners, right?
Get get uh get trained, folks. And I mean, and at the same time, it's
not I I will never put it all on the installers either, right? Because some of these stores are just that's what
they do. It's they put their installers in a position to fail because they don't
have anyone else to do it. Oh, you know how to do vinyl? Just go do this job. Or it ties into what we're talking about
about helping them become better at what they're doing. Even if it is just installation.
Hey, we have these biolites coming up. You are our primary flat.
Let's get a a hold of the manufacturer and get them in here for a training. Let's see what kind of classes are
available. Are you willing to get better at this before all the hits the fan or you just want to dive in and just
hope for the best? Right. So, so that's what we're talking about. That's
Yeah. And that's what I see like in the when I do the NFCT classes. It's
um uh I was talking to one of the guys from the last class the other day and he was like, "Man, like thanks for
everything you taught me. I came back here and they gave him this um huge
hospital job, he said. And it's like, "Good. I'm I'm I hope you learned enough
to, you know, keep going." It's And this this guy was he was pretty good. It's
just it's the little things when you're going through certifications when uh like just
because you don't pass doesn't mean you're not right on the brink of passing, right?
Yeah. Well, and what is not past fail is the knowledge
you learned while you were there. I mean, bottom line, he knows exactly why we have to to weld
in the inside and outside corners and why they have to be the way
watertight, right? We're working in in areas where you it is. It could be life
or death. So, there is no ifs, and or buts. It's weld it, right?
And and and that also ties into the uh instead of teaching how to install,
teaching how to be a business owner too, right? Like that ties into that too because now you have you have
information to pass on to the client as to why you cannot avoid certain steps
and the outcomes uh if you do avoid those steps. And and it's very important
for people to understand that if you do skip some some steps that are
detrimental to the product. It's going to be an installer error. Uh and the
client's not going to be happy about it at the end of the day anyway. Hurry up, get it done, they're happy. Come back in
six months to redo everything, they're not happy. Why'd you hurry up? They'll never take that on. Just like, why
didn't you tell me? They didn't tell you. This is the professional. Why didn't you
tell me? Yeah. And that's uh that gets into
documentation. We've had plenty of podcasts over that, you know, documenting,
you know, when you're not given the proper time to do your job properly, that type of stuff. But all that is
really the most essential thing is to do the job right. you know do do the
quality putting the product in properly so that you don't have failures and
[clears throat] to do that you got to know you got to have the knowledge and then you got to work those hand skills. So now when
we're talking about that's one thing when we're talking about 1099s. What about when we're talking W2s? How do you
develop people from just teaching them the trade to uh having that as a career?
How do we do that? Still learning how to do that, brother. Right. Um
you know let's start with how we did it for ourselves. Um, and when when we were
W2s is is I know we went from a 1099 uh to hourly and it was very hard for me to
break the mindset of right if I don't make my company money
I'm not going to make money but I need also need to get better. So I still did
a lot of learning on my own. Um, and I think that that's where the
disconnect is coming for a lot of employees, right? Employees are just
punching, you know, the clock versus trying to get better. They only get better when you're paying them to get
better versus trying to get better because they want to be better anyway. [snorts] And I was trying to get better
anyway. now in order to I don't know entice them to get better
and and you still you want to try to teach them the business side but they don't like and and and I'm going to just
go out and say this is we're what we're experiencing right now is that they don't care about the business side
they just want their money and they want to get out so we're still trying to find that secret sauce
that's the tough thing with employees yeah they just want to like like hey
we're going to spend this day learning how to do this right of really I already know how to do it. Well, you you don't though because we keep having problems
on this. So, let's spend this day learning. Well, why do we got to do this? Why do we got to do Bro, you've been doing for 20 years. Why are you
asking me why you got to do it that way? You really don't know. Like, all right, let's go through then.
You know, you got to and everybody's at a different spot of their push back when
instead of being like, "Okay, explain that to me again. Uh why we have to do
it like that?" It's always, well, why don't we just do it like this? Like,
is it Yeah. And in those cases, it's it's like,
[clears throat] and I know all flooring companies deal with this who do have W2s, but the more the more training
opportunities like that can only turn into better installers for the most
part. But you always going to have the ones that are like I mean we've we've had them too where
they give they let a training go in one ear and out the other.
the those kind of guys typically don't last very long as W2s because for us
because it's like well if you don't want to do superior work then
we don't we can't employ you here and then also that doesn't mean you're going
to be able to sub here either because we don't have less you know quality expectations for our subs
[clears throat] we expect the same out of them and so Um, it's a tough thing, but I I
believe as riding this tide of newer installers
coming in over the next several years and them being a little bit more
I feel Ben said this once. He said, you know, we kind of skipped two generations of pro of industry training or like like
educational um like an educational system around the
flooring industry. And I think he's right. You know, once union, maybe even
more than two generations, but certainly two generations uh that that kind of skipped the uh
traditional training methods that go into learning a trade. And then you just had a bunch of cowboys for a couple
generations teaching each other. And there's no no way to track what they
know, no way to really know what they know. And so flooring companies got into
this habit of like and hey I guarantee you if any flooring companies watch this
they they know well let's try what they do is he says
he can do it let's try him on this job over here this small job.
So they put the customer as the person to vet the installer
you know let's try him over here on this job. If he does a good job, we'll try him again over here. If he doesn't, then we'll get rid of him and and hire
somebody else to finish it or to replace it. That's pretty terrible system. And
[laughter] we're just coming on we're just coming around to having a true systematic way of of kind of logging
trainings and and understanding career progression for people. So,
[clears throat] one of the thing main points I want to bring up is to build a career, you have to have some level of
understanding of career progression and where someone's at and where they want to go. So, if somebody is in your
organization, they want to end up being a project manager in the in the commercial world or a salesman in the
residential world. We have two or three guys that work for us that well one of
our main guys was an installer and he moved up. He wanted in that position and
it was pretty clear that that's the path he wanted. So making as an employee, if
you'll make it known to your company where you want to go, uh a good company
will help you get there. And um that's not always the case, but it's um more
often than not, at least in my experience, and I'm not saying this is across the board, but where do you want
to go? And the the company should have some methods to get you there. uh if you
want to just run a crew. We had a guy that we offered uh one of our best
installers a superintendent position or a field operations manager position and
he said no I just want to install like great that's fine you know he's a great
installer does great work um and you know still still truck trucking away you
know but the the point is is that [clears throat] to to be able to build a career you got to know what that looks
like for an inst installer. And what that means is a good package around them, good uh company, uh some of what
Denise uh said in, you know, positive work environment, those types of things.
We're horrible at clicking on these comments today, aren't we? Yeah, I'm getting behind here. Let me
see if I can catch up. Denise says here, uh you know, you can get you can get it
done, meaning the job, or you can get it done right. Um, in the residential
world, I cannot tell you how many people call and ask us for restretches or or
come and look. I just got this installed a year ago and it's already wrinkling. I don't want the old company to come back
out. Could you how much would you charge? And I'm like, well, we don't really do that type of work, but I can
get you in touch with someone who does. And I give them to, you know, someone else like Dwayne Puit's a a good
example, somebody who does that type of work all the time. But what I I bring that up just to show the the how much
when they're calling when they're calling us who we don't have a huge online like retail presence. We don't
need it. We're a commercial contractor. Um so but when they're calling us, you
know that they're in kind of desperate need. And so doing the job right uh can
mean a happy customer for a long time. And that's what you should care about. You really should care that your customers happy long term. She goes on
to say, "And always learn something. If they have the passion but do not want
the headaches of being a business, they can be great employees." So, she's talking about that line of thought we
were discussing between subs andies. And man, it's like a
it's a roller coaster here at our company where some I mean
I bet you 10 of our subs or eight of our subs are are old employee installers.
That's that's phenomenal. And and for them to let me ask you a question. So from
transitioning from employee to sub, uh are they the only eight that's ever done that? And if there's been more, how do
you pick and choose who actually stays on as a a legitimate sub and who's worth
the time when when they decide to go that route, right? Like um yeah, one of the that's a great
question. One of the things um many more than just eight have done it. Some of
them have went to work for other companies and you know, some of them stayed just doing our work and and
filling in as necessary. The ones we prefer to work with are the ones who have two things. Quality first
and the ability to build a team. The those are two of our most important
as things that we look at with the sub because if they're going to take on a job, you got to know that they know how
to recruit people onto their team. Now, Jumpstart with Trade Tap is trying to
make that easier, but we're we're not we're not nationwide yet, you know. Um,
but the point is is that if you do not know how to build a team and teach your
team how to be better, then the whole job relies on you. And in those cases,
we make the the sub that we award the work order to, you have to be on the job
site. And we have a few of those subs are like, hey, you have to be on, you can't just send guys. And um so I would
say those are the two really important. Can they build a crew
and maintain a good crew? And is all based on quality?
You know, it's funny you said it like that, too, because when you are a
subcontractor and you're bringing on employees and you're trying to teach them, you have to do the same concept when you're building your business, too.
It's the same the the same uh the same math, if you will. You can't
build a good team whether you're, you know, a subcontractor or you're trying to create a good employee base.
It's the same concept, the same downfalls, right? And the difference is is maintaining that team and then
attracting the right people afterwards. Building and hiring Yeah. the proper people in your business,
whether you're a subcontractor looking to hire and train helpers into apprentices into, you know,
guys that can do work on their own for you. [clears throat] or if you are a
um flooring company hiring subs and hiring W2s that the same thing, but you
also have to then branch out like estimators, project managers, accounting, coordinators, deliveries,
you know, all of that stuff. And you got to know how to build a team uh or at least fail your way to building a team
uh [laughter] like I did uh for a lot of my career. But you know there's no doubt the best companies in the world
recruit, hire and fire better than their than others. Like that is a a
performance metric for a good company is how can they attract and build a team
and can they do they let go of the people that are need to let that don't
fit the culture or fit the the bill so to speak? Uh, do they let them go
quickly? Got to learn how to do that.
It's all important. And as a as an installer, [clears throat] I tell you what,
sometimes you feel like you just got to deal with what you get dealt.
Yeah. And and as an employer, I think the hard thing that that we we're experiencing right now is
for one, people don't learn all at the same pace. Everybody learns all at their own pace. And for two, even though
someone says that they want the next level, they just want the next level in pay. They don't want the next level in
knowledge and responsibility. And I think that that's where some of the hard part for growth from us is coming. And
we're experiencing that they say they want it, but when you say, "All right, show me." There's there's
nothing to show. And then say, "Well, pay me. Pay me for that and then I'll show you." It's like, "Okay, so
invest in you." Did I say something, Daniel? No, go ahead.
Oh, I thought Daniel was saying something. Um, no, I'm trying to be quiet because y'all were breaking up a little bit.
Oh, gotcha. And I think uh The hard part is is to have those
conversations and find out where people are at to see if it is really worth their time to invest in us and our and
worth our time to invest back in them. Right? It's a it's a happy dance and we got to find a happy medium and um
finding a happy medium with the right people is harder than it harder than it looks. And if you have the right
processes and the right team to help you do so, then kudos to you. Um,
and we're here to learn just as much as you guys. If anybody out there's got information for us, help us out, please.
Yeah. Well, it it's a tough one. I I would say one of the things that is
starting um you know is there there always was this progression
back in the day long time ago [snorts] but you came in you were this you know
green horn and then you were somebody's helper right and then you
were in an apprenticeship program for four years and then you for
maybe get to be a journeyman after five or six years, right?
The there's no one of the things that I think is
important, one of TRTEP's biggest feats is to create those things. So that's
where the VTI comes in and allows an installer to be where they are, whether
they're a rookie or an artisan or a master or expert.
those the companies I'm talking to now about trade tap are really in in in
interested mostly around having a way to pay somebody more because they have
displayed and proven a higher skill and a higher competency in completing the work. And those those metrics are tough
to track by yourself without a good system around. And so we're providing
that system. But whether you do a trade tap thing or you have your I've talked
to some companies that have their own like color proc coded, you know, well,
when you get to a red or a green color, then you get you'll get paid more. And
you put the the responsibility back on them. Hey, you're right now an
intermediate guy. you get to expert and I will make sure you have the
opportunities. But you get to expert, you'll get a a pay raise. Then if you go
to expert to master, you'll get another pay raise. But, you know, tying their
pay to their competency and their ability to get your job done and get
will get their jobs done is one of the big uh, you know, pushes that I implore
companies to make is like have some system. If you don't want to use ours, that's fine, but have something.
Looks like I may have lost Jose. He don't like you. He don't like me. Now I got two black
screens. These shorts are going to be crazy with just me. And I know at least at least I have a little
character on there. Yeah, you got a little icon going. But I want to get back to kind of what
you were touching on about building that team, right? Because we're talking about a career. And when we keep on saying
that people own a job, you're going to always own a job if you're just working by yourself because you're relying on
yourself to do everything. And there's too many guys out there that have that mindset of um I don't want to work with
anyone. I don't like even if they try, they're like,
every time I try teaching someone, they just Oh man, it's just me now. Guys, I just
dropped uh Daniel. Both of the guys are out on jobs and projects and running
around today, so have some grace. you only have me at the
moment. But, um, I think what Daniel was kind of alluding to was that, you know,
regardless of of all the technical skills, you got to learn, you got to know how to build a team. And there's no
better way to build a team than c you know employing or employing
um giving employment to um a few you
know new guys coming in and you and you got to realize that they're not always going to be as good
as you, right? They're they're not going to be as good as you. But it that's your should be your goal is to get them there
and it just takes time. Yes. And it's it's an effort that never
goes away. I got two Daniels. What's up, Jose? It's
an effort that never goes away. You got to continue. Like you you're going to try and people are going to fail to to
make it. They're not going to quite, you know, make it. Um
but that doesn't mean you don't try with the next guy. That's one thing that gets that's hard for us uh as businesses is
that you know relying on or understanding people learn differently.
They learn at different speeds. They're in different places in their um career
or their learning curve already. And so it's it's it's tough. I'm not saying
this is easy, but it is worth it. And as an installer, you investing in
yourself. Um, you know, most business owners, um, like you know, your your
gurus of business, they they say, "If you only have a $1,000 to invest, where
would you invest it?" Right? That's the thought experiment. And most people start to think, "Oh, in this uh this,
you know, AI stock or this over here." No. If all you have is a thousand bucks
to invest, invest in yourself. You'll get no better return on your investment
than investing in yourself. Period. Bar none. Definitely investing in
yourself is the best thing you can do. There's minds your your mind will change by
doing that. You know, there's a positive mindset
there. There is a positive mindset. Sorry about the disconnection there. Our phone, our phone, office phone rang and
it just cut me off. It's like, what the heck's going [laughter] on? There's some wires crossed over there. Get that electrician back.
Well, they seen you laughing that we were gone. I didn't see all [laughter] of that.
I I I was just by myself for a moment. So, uh you know, it is what it is. we
all um continue to learn how to deal with technology on a daily basis as well. So,
uh Kevin, I would have you I just seen Kevin says he's available to get on.
I I sent them a link. We are um getting close, but I do want to announce that we're going to be
having a se several inspectors on. We're trying to get the date um kind of nailed
down, but we want to have some inspectors come on and discuss the inspector side of the world and how that
applies to installers and companies and what we can do. So, be on the lookout for that. It's going to be uh packed
with guests. In fact, when we do these types of deals, me and the guys, we do
our best just to kind of get it going and step back and listen and learn ourselves. So, um I'm hoping that uh
Kevin, you're on here, so I'm hoping that you would join us on that inspector um uh call as well, that inspector
podcast. Um and that will be coming down. So, keep an eye on uh that because
as an installer, you should really understand these things. In fact, you know, I think that if I was an
installer, I would still installing on a daily basis. I would probably want to go
to an inspector course and learn some of these things here. Let's add Kevin to
the stream. How we doing today, Mr. Kevin? What's up, brother?
It's the rare moment you caught me at the house. Well, uh we're glad that you could uh
jump right on and and uh give us your give us your thoughts
around having flooring as a well the topic is having you know the difference
between training the trade and actually having a career and uh in our industry some of
the difficulties around that is you know subcontractor 1099s rule the world so to
speak in our industry but they're still W2s and so juggling that uh and at the
same time trying to keep um trying to keep you know momentum with
your business. You know I mean the bottom I don't I'm
going to keep my opinion about whether a you're a sub or an in-house installer.
I'll keep my opinion to myself on that because as a business owner well actually I'll share it. I always wanted
to have in-house installers cuz I felt like we could train them better, give
them more passion about what they're doing, give them a, you know, a quicker
path to success uh that way. And as a business owner, obviously, then you have
control of, you know, what's being done on your job sites where you're very limited with uh subs. But I I
understand, you know, how things are in the world. And, you know, if you're going off on your own, I mean, that's
where you're going to start is as a sub. Um, you know, as far as a career versus
a job, you know, I, you know, I I train anybody that's going to show up. But if
I wasn't in the position I am in now and if I was a business owner and somebody
said this is just a job for me, I'm going to tell you right now, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time training them
because he's not taking it serious as a career and flooring is a great career.
There's a lot What questions would you ask that individual to kind of expose some of
that stuff? Well, I ask them where do you see yourself in five years? Right. I think that I think that's going
to expose it all. If he says, "Well, I'm going to be a doctor in five years, or I'm going to go back to college in five
years, or this is just getting me through the summer, right? I'm going to
concentrate my time on the guy that depends on that job, right? Cuz that job
means everything to him and he's going to soak it up like a sponge and utilize it to his best of his ability. as a, you
know, you're going to go through a handful of these guys as a store owner or as a lead guy. And the bottom line is
you're going to have good ones, you're going to have bad ones, you're going to have guys you'll know for 35 years, 40 years, you're going to have guys you
might know for three or four days, right? The training never stops and it doesn't change per guy. But if a guy
doesn't look at at the flooring industry as a career and it's a part-time job or
it's a it's a a bridge to another position in life, how much time do I
have to train that guy? Right. I I don't Right. In fact, I I I
this goes back to the hiring process as well. I wouldn't hire a guy that says, "Hey, I need a job for the summer. I'll
be really great and I'll be a great worker." Well, you know, I might have a spot for you sweeping floors, but uh you
know, that's about as far as that's going to go. If I'm hiring a guy, I want him to look at it as a career
opportunity. Um because it should be, right? And those are the guys that are going to work, you know, turn out to be
the best employees for you. Um you only have so much time in this
life, right? And it takes years to train installers, you know, in certain
division, certain aspects of of this industry. It can take many years to
train a guy up to where he's a lead guy, right? And I obviously I'm a carpet guy
at heart. Uh, and what what I think it takes to be a high-end residential
carpet guy, I'm looking at five years, right? That's just to get the guy out to lead an apartment crew, you know? And
this is me. Hey, maybe I'm a little overboard on some stuff, but you know, that's and that's when the learning
starts is when he gets there, you know. So, when you're talking about an investment in somebody, they they have
to think of it as a career, not a job. That's my opinion. Uh if you show up at
one of my trainings, I don't care what you say, I'm going to train you the same. You're going to get the same attention. But if if I was owning my own
business again, uh you know, I'd be very selective of how that guy saw his
future. Whether it was with me or another guy, I don't care, right? You you have to expect guys to move on. If
you train them right and build them up properly, you should have the expectation of them being better than
you at some point. You should have the expectation of them moving on and bettering themselves. If that is if
better if if a path leading away from you is bettering themselves or push you to help them in that
betterment or or or exactly or work harder to build that relationship so they don't want to
leave right but all this is so so important but for me you know as a former business owner
uh trainer and many different aspects of this industry now um you know I want to
see guys that are looking at just like I did when I was 17. When at 17 I I
already knew I I said, "Wow, you know, my first year in in B in in the industry, I said, "Wow, I I I think I'm
really could be really good at this." And then, you know, by year two, I knew every angle and knew, you know, my path
of where I was going to go and what it was going to take me to get there. And I started working on that, right? Along
the way, I met a lot of guys that were summer help, you know what I mean? And I hated working next to these guys cuz
they didn't take it serious. They didn't take it serious, right? You know, so you
know, the passion that I bring to the table was not met, you know, and that can become a problem on the job site. So
aligning yourself with the right-minded people, I think, in business is key.
Yep. Finding that good fit for your company. Um,
and it starts with an attitude, right? It starts with attitude. You know, if you got a guy showing up 5 10 minutes
late and you got and you got the guys that are taking this serious as a career that where they're 10 minutes early,
that's a problem. That creates a problem throughout the day, right? Yeah. So, finding a guy that understands what
they can do in the flooring industry is priceless, right? And I've been lucky
enough to meet a handful of those guys and those are the guys that I really, you know, keep a good hold on, keep in
contact with. I have a guy that took one of my trainings this year. He calls me at least once every other week and you
will meet him because he will he is the recipient of the uh CFI
um uh fantasy football league uh uh you
know trip to convention this year. And why did he get that? Because he showed
that he is that guy, right? He knows this is his career. He's a sponge right
now. What better place for him to go than CFI convention to be around other like-minded individuals that can show
him the future and help him help him build that uh path to success.
Yeah. You know, it's pretty rare. Um, just imploring the audience here, if
you're an installer ever on the fence about getting uh, trained, industry
trained, uh, and CFI being one of the absolute
best at this, uh, particularly in the carpet area, like you just don't have
much better opportunity to become a really, really good carpet installer.
Um, but if you are on the fence, when I go
to convention, most of these guys are what I would call successful. when I see them at convention, I talk to him about
their week or talk to Kevin about his month or, you know, Jimmy or any of the
people there, there's, you know, if you compare that to the majority to like
it's such a small percentage that's went through that and I just don't understand it. I don't understand what the the I I
I mean, I get that you're going to have to take some days off work and pay for a training, but outside of that, what my
point is, and that's investing in yourself. Uh, but my point is is that the proof is in the pudding. go to
convention and talk to some of these guys. And I know many of them that that
have not only done really well in this industry financially, but they're they
also love teaching other people and showing the skill and showing the like
if you'll engage, you'll find more guys that want to help you than you than you could ever imagine.
That's been my experience. 100% accurate right there. you you build that camaraderie. You you end up finding
that you have a team uh to lean on when when when
leaders need help and leaders lead their their their home and their business and they're leading all day every day and
they hit that that brick wall, they hit that that situation where they need help.
You find the people to lean on at conventions like that through all of the knowledge that they've gained over the
years and the scenarios. Uh, even though I give Kevin crap all the time, we're there and I look up to that dude for
what he does and what he continues to do. He's one of one of the best and skilled guys and also one of the best
talkers out there, too. And I appreciate [laughter] that. Kevin, what's a guy's name you're
bringing to convention? Oh, are you able to say? Uh, no. I'm I'm not going to it'll be a
big surprise honestly because uh yeah, we're going to leave it as a surprise, but I'll make sure to introduce him to
everybody. He is from Wisconsin. Um we breed a lot of good good carpet
guys here in Wisconsin and sells well bias and [laughter] best the best installers come from the
Midwest. I'm just saying what it is. Midwest. So I guess I guess you're okay. I agree. Um, but uh, and you know, and I
just got off the phone with with Rod Von Bush talking about setting up some stuff. We're going to be, if you guys,
anybody's interested that's listening, I'm going to be hosting an NFIC certification, an advanced uh, CFI
certification. Uh, and uh, I'm putting together one heck of a chapter meeting for an
all-week uh, uh, deal here in Milwaukee. And as we're looking at the first week
of December for that. So, uh, if there's any carpet guys out there, stay informed on that one.
Yeah, I might be able I might come up for the chapter meeting. Hey, we might have some ice. We can take you ice fishing, too.
Hey, so now you got me. But, no, we're excited. A lot of good things going on. Convention coming up in
November. I'm going to be heading out to Michigan tomorrow. might stop and say hi to the guys on my way across uh uh
across Michigan. I'm be heading out to the union to they're having an all state competition out there uh in Detroit that
they invited me in to do a class at and help judge uh the competition out there. So, I'm looking forward to that. Union's
been really stepping up uh with their trainings from the West Coast to the East Coast. have noticed uh you know
there there's a lot of effort going on over there as well and uh we need we need to make sure that they're aware of
everything that's going on with what we're doing as well. Um Amen. because there's a lot of them and I see
a lot more guys going that direction these days. I don't know uh haven't quite pinpoint why that is uh but uh
there are a lot of upand cominging young uh union installers. So, I think there's an eb and flow to it and
um but the bottom line is great. [laughter] That's great to hear. You know,
we'll we'll take them anywhere they come, right? Yeah. Um the inst, you know, installation uh
world needs it. Uh these guys are not getting any younger out there. uh we we
need the fresh fresh young minds that are looking at this as a career and uh
we're looking at looking for guys that are helping to lead those guys into those careers as well. So
well I want to uh thank everybody for joining us today and thanks Kevin for jumping on and and uh uh giving us some
some of your insights, man. I appreciate that and I I know that um you know as
we're going forward with everything that's I think starting to build in the
industry there's going to be some good opportunities for you for the installer to uh improve their their their
capability to be developed into a a career like I I
think looking at it as a career is the right way to look at it. The the the problem that I see that is coming to a
head is just that two generations of just anybody slapping anything on their
truck and, you know, two or three guys jumping together and getting in a truck
and and saying they're carpet layers, you know, and um I think we're almost
through that as as the consumer is starting to want to know that the
installers that are in their homes or on their projects, in their businesses are
um skilled and capable of doing their work. The more that that happens, the
more we start to weed out some of the the guys that I think just don't want to learn, the ones that will tell you or
tell a trainer like, "Why would you do it that way? It takes too much time." Or tell a trainer like, "Oh, there's an
easier way." Yeah. But it mean it's not just easier doesn't mean the right way.
So, thank you everybody for joining us today. Thank you Kevin and um another
shout out to Pro Installer Magazine and Trade Tap. Keep your eyes open on our socials. We're going to have some really
cool news coming out here soon. So, appreciate everybody joining today's
episode. If you are catching us on YouTube or any of the channels, please give us a like and subscribe. Follow our
stuff, comment on our stuff. you guys participating in that manner uh helps us
continue to to be able to do this every week. So, with that said, we're going to sign off for the day. Thank you
everybody for joining us and we'll catch you guys next week. Thanks everyone. See you guys.
