The Huddle - Episode 201. Training Isn’t Just a Class – It’s a Culture
Training isn’t just something you attend, it’s something you live.
This week on The Huddle, Paul and Jose dive into why the best installers and companies don’t treat training like a one-time event or a box to check. Real growth happens when education becomes part of the culture.
And fittingly enough, Daniel couldn’t make the episode because he was actively leading a training course — but Scott Bohaker joined the show live from the training to bring real-time perspective to the conversation.
In This Episode:
Why ongoing training matters more than ever in the flooring industry
The difference between attending a class and building a culture of learning
How strong training environments create stronger installers and teams
Why companies that invest in education often outperform those that don’t
The role accountability and mentorship play in long-term growth
Because in today’s industry, the people who keep learning are the ones who keep advancing.
Why This Episode Matters: At The Huddle Podcast, we believe Forward Progress starts with education, mentorship, and a willingness to keep improving, no matter how long you’ve been in the trade.
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What is up team? Welcome back to the huddle, the number one podcast in flooring. We're here every week to help
you guys gain forward progress in your career. Simply put, we're here to help you guys win. For all our new viewers,
our greatest sincerity, welcome to the team. Today with me um is in support of our
topic training isn't just a class it's a culture. Mr. Scott Boicker in tow with
our host Mr. Daniel Gonzalez the host with the most live from Calhoun
out of Flash Cove and heat welding course that we've talked to you guys about in the past. So this is going to
be a good topic. Uh it's almost like we planned it to have some training people
and a training going on during this topic. So Mr. Jose Gonzalez as always
here on the podcast with this fresh cut dome and about time. Woo.
Scott, how's it going up there? Uh or I should say down there from where I'm at in Calhoun.
Things are going good. Uh we got a good class going on. Daniel will be joining us shortly. He's in the middle of doing
some pattern scribing and some flash cing at the moment. And uh yeah, he's
he's more needed back in the training room at the moment than he is here in the in the in the class
podcast studio. El Calhoun. That's right. I'll do my best to fill in
for him in the meantime. Well, all you got to do is talk a lot. So, you'll you'll you'll do just fine.
Hey, Jose. So, today is kind of uh one of those topics that you really feel
passionate about and wanted to give you a chance to kind of lay it out there.
What is uh what do you mean by training isn't just a class, it's a culture.
Well, because it's um it's like anything that you show interest in, right? Like once once you
pick up a hobby, you you you're all in. you start investing more time, more money, um more of your resources into it
and and that's where uh the the culture forms. You just it's something Look,
first off, let me explain a little bit about myself. I am addicted to learning new things, right? And I'm just I just
love to learn. I I I like to absorb information. I retain most of it. Not
all of it. I retain most of it. And I just I I like the I like putting forth effort into getting
to know a product better um or learn how to do something a little bit better. But
but this is this is how I make a living, right? Flooring is is what I do for a
career. and to be able to to find, let's say, your people, so to speak, in a
place that you never thought you'd be able to find your people and and and have others to call on and talk to.
That's where that culture comes in. Um, learning is an addiction
and, you know, a habit. Let me say, let me put it that habit, addiction, however you want to put it. Learning is like
that. The better you get at something, the more you want out of it. The more you want out of it, the more you look
into it. The more you look into it, the more of yourself you put into it. The more of yourself you put into it, the
more you get out of it. All right, guys. That's some deep talk there from Mr. I'm a terrible learner myself. I need
repetition. That's how I learn. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what it is, right? But you need something to spark
that interest, right? You need Let me ask you a question, Jose. Uh so
clearly not everybody is addicted as you call it to learning or
um as as uh or would self-describe as uh you
know loving to learn. Um what how you still have to in any
professional trades which we are without a doubt way behind in flooring. I mean I
have scoured other trades uh in my journey with trade tap and
all the trades are a bit slow to the most of them are slow to the
um to the party of preparing for you know what we've been experiencing in
our industry is like uh like your brother says not just a a lack of people
but a it's more of a lack of quality people. Um, if every installer
could install like my best guys, I don't know that I'd have as big of a shortage
as I feel. Right. So, I tend to agree with your brother in the fact that we
have a shortage of quality installers. And one of those things um that and the
reason that's apparent is uh at trade I mean we have thousands of guys on the
application or crews I should say and the average rating is under intermediate
um and um like you still have proficient and
expert and master like they're they're under even experienced. So
why do you think it is that so many people just kind of in our industry where did this culture of like just
winging it? I've heard that plenty of times in our industry. Like where did
that come from? And Scott, you've been around long enough. I'd love your two cents on this.
is why is it so hard to get uh why has it been so complicated to get people to
inherently desire to you know take this craft uh which I would argue a little
long-winded here but I would argue one of the hardest hand skills actual
craftsman jobs next to maybe finish carpentry.
um why why is it that we take this um I don't know handyman kind of hobbyist
approach to our to our industry? Why has that happened do you think?
Well, the thing I hear the most from installers and I spent several years traveling across the country going
in-house doing trainings on new products for manufacturers and it's they've never
had problems, they've never had call backs. So why do they need trainings?
We know that just because an installer doesn't have call backs does not mean
that he is a perfect installer. A lot of the times that just means that a homeowner is just not calling them back because they don't want them back into
their house. Right? So the there's this mentality amongst
installers that they already know it all and they don't have any problems. So why do they need to have more training where
and I will be honest with you, I I fell into that category for a long time. I
didn't have my first certification until probably 10 years ago and I'm 54. So I
skated by for 25 years almost with no training. Very fortunate that it didn't
cost me a lot of money, but it's until they know
They don't know. Like I became a certified installer
and all of the sudden I realized all the things that I wasn't doing as an installer such as seam sealing seams,
things like that. I became a certified inspector. All of the sudden I seen the
consequences of all the things I wasn't doing as an installer and how all these
products fail. Until you open up an installer's eyes to that, it's
it's a hard fight. Well, plus we're very money driven, too, right? Like, yeah,
you take time off work to go get a training and you're not making money that week because you're
spending money at the training. So, that's that's the hard thing that we have to do is show people the value in
training. And you guys know it's not just about hand skills. It's about networking. And if
you have problems, you got people you can reach out to once you start doing these trainings. It's all it's there's
so much to it that we just it's hard. It's definitely a balance of of soft and hard skills. That's for sure.
And um I think I think that everybody here was guilty of not seeing the value
in the training. Right. Although I got to say I gotta I gotta interrupt for a second. I wasn't as
fortunate as Scott. I did have failures and I just blamed other things and as
soon as he said yeah as soon as he said um that uh you know most installers say
they they they you know they don't have failures and so why spend the money and take the time
off and I call BS 100%. They either don't know they've had a
failure, and they certainly have, or uh or they
are just straight out lying, or they're not considering
that replacement because the glue was coming between the seams because they
didn't let the pressure sensitive set up. All whatever, the wrong trial size, whatever. They're like, "Well, that
wasn't a failure. That was just a little mistake. Look, with $3.2 billion in failures,
most installers have had some failures, right? 3.2 billion a year in an industry
a year, dude. A year in an industry that our labor value in that same year is around 20 to
22 billion. Well, you do the math on that. That's like it's too high a percentage. That That's a high percentage,
you know? Yeah, that's like 20% or something. I didn't don't judge me on my math skills.
Most manufacturers, they they want a claim rate under like 2% on their on their manufacturing, right? So, you
think of how high the installation percentage would be on those. Oh, you could finagle paperwork to
you could finagle paperwork to get that quota, right? That's that's always uh that's why it's uh the majority of the
time is the installer. One of the things that I I think is uh when we moved into subcontracting
as a the vast majority of the business uh when it was hourly, how do you how do
you pay an hourly employee by their skill level by their known
ability to do the work by their leadership? Like this is how you pay an employee. Is that like
you you you bank on that right there. You don't pay them because they have
less failures. You pay them for what they can do and hope that there's no failures. Their level of knowledge, their ability,
all the soft skills Scott was talking about. That's how you h that's how you uh take a guy. Uh that's why our highest
paid guy in our on our crew in-house crew is certified up the wazoo and does
great jobs. gets requested by our clients and all that stuff. Well, that's
how we deal with employees. And when we started subbing everything out and that
became the the normal and not the exception anymore, now it's it's it's
exceptional if you are a flooring company that has W2 installers. Like that's a rarity.
Yeah. If you take the whole nation. So when we did that, now you have no way
to to judge control uh you have to only incentivize
uh the subcontractor to find the value in training which is I think a big push
in the industry like we've got to get back to the credentials and the way that they're doing your work and the the the
reputation like these things mattering more than uh just can't is it a warm
body. The problem is we have so many untrained installers that like warm bodies is what
you get. And you you get some good guys, don't get me wrong. like you don't not every good guy is certified but every I
think um I I proved this to myself be before I was super duper heavy into like
go get training was when we were doing McDonald's all over the nation and when
I would get a CTI certified guy on the job and it was it was kind of rare but
if I would do that the job went better period like
measurably better. So that's my opinion. problem is two cents.
Me, Jose, you, Paul, we go to services, we go to synergy, we go to the summit,
we go to all the events that we can. Unfortunately,
we see the same people. Yeah, it's like a family reunion.
Yeah, it is too. And then we don't see enough fresh faces at these events, and that's what we
really need to keep promoting. Well, I applaud the efforts out there to, you
know, my goal if I have any influence in the industry is to create demand for
training, fill more classes, have more locations, like uh less travel, more
like that's that's what I I pray for. And and I like that, you know, some of
that's happening. You know, kudos CFI for relaunching the chapters a couple of years ago and having those chapters and
then people kind of get around them a little bit and you become
the sum of the five people you hang out with the most. You guys have heard that saying. Uh well, it's pretty dog on
true. And if you're an installer hanging out with a bunch of non like hacks,
well, you can sum it up guy like and if you're
the guy that goes to convention and summit and trainings and certifications
and that you're also around the five and you can sum that up. So,
uh, do I want to point out a comment Doyle says, "The obvious thing is to do is to invest in yourself, but why is it
not so obvious to the installers?" Well, he said earlier,
they're still getting the work. Yeah. Yeah. That the sales are still going to happen. The work is still going to be
there. It doesn't matter. it it kind of does matter, but you have the people who
the installers who don't know how to give the numbers out, don't know the value and what they're doing. Then you have the ones that do know the value,
right? And there's a that's a big gap. That's a lot of separation. I don't know. I dis I disagree with that
a little bit and I I sorry to interrupt you, but I disagree. They're they're charging the they're charging the value
that they are like these if you are untrained. Correct. and and not you don't do great
work and you just kind of get by job to job. You are charging what you're worth
which is not so much but what they don't understand the value they could create.
That there you go. You you said it way better. That's a better way. They don't understand the value that they could create, right? If they're missing it
out, if that's the that's all they know, you're right. They are charging the value that they understand. Um, but
they don't understand their ceiling yet though. Like they're charging like the the floor rate, but they don't realize
that there's a much higher ceiling that they can achieve. Amen. That
and you don't and I say you have we did not learn a lot of that until we started
getting out there and you know dollars and cents. Nobody, no instructor, no manufacturer,
nobody likes to talk about dollars and cents because it's all re regional, right? Um, you know, even in your own
state is different from the east to the west side of the state. You know, you have uh like over here, Michigan, we're
you know, west side, we're not very heavily populated with uh um
the union, but the east side is right. So the east side has some of their rates reflect union rates because that's the
normal over there. Same thing in the region and we don't discuss a lot of that in the classes or certifications or
even in I guess we would across the table from one another in group meetings and we're talking how to become better
and and where you guys at and what should I do and we learn where the rates
are kind of at. But if you don't go to any of these classes, you don't take any of these uh courses, you don't put
yourself out there, you'll never know that there is a ceiling that exceeds
where you're at. Right? Like there was a gentleman I met a few years
ago that only does work on islands for extremely high dollars and only
works six months a year, right? Like can I get a can I get a part of that? Yeah, that's I want a part of that,
right? But the sacrifices that he's gone six, you know, six months a year, not
probably not consecutive, but he put himself in the position to find that work by getting trained, getting
certified, learning his his craft, and then meeting the right people. Um,
opportunity, right? He was prepared. the the the thing the obvious point to that
I that I'd like to point out about Doyle's previous comment is the word that he used when he's referring to
training. A lot of guys will say I it waste I don't want to waste my time or
spend my time and he used the word invest and that's the proper way to think about it is when you go to a
training or a certification or even just you know say you're going to TIC or a
convention of some sort view that as an investment
no different than you would view that uh you know a money investment. into a stock, you're investing your time in
those cases. It will pay you back at a higher rate than what you paid. I have
yet to meet somebody who's really taken their training, their career seriously
or their their craft seriously. Go get trained. Uh maybe get certified
that does not did not get the value back out of that in money. And I'm not
talking about, oh, he felt good about being better. No, you make more money if you'll if you go out and you get
trained, you get certified, and you you you're able to command more money.
I will um I will add to that, too. If you go out to a certification or a
training and you're going in there like, "Oh, I don't know why I'm here." Right? Like, you're still going to come
away with with some information, some nuggets. But if you go into that like I
can't wait to learn something, you're gonna come out with so much more. Um, you're gonna be so open-minded that
you're not gonna be afraid to ask the questions, which makes you more approachable because people want to help one another. Um, and this is the culture
part of it. No one in the flooring industry that I've ever met by going through training,
certification, a conference, or any kind of seminar has ever said, "I don't want to tell you because I don't want you to
do well. I want to be doing better than you. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody has ever given that impression. It is,
oh, you said you were having trouble with what? Well, this is what I experienced and what I did, right? And it's from from business to installation
skills. The information is there. And the people are more than willing to help out.
Yeah. It's the ones that don't go to the conferences and the trainings, they're the ones that don't want to share necessarily. the ones that are coming
through the trainings and greedy greedy. That's right. They're the ones that really want to share and that's because
we've all been there. We've had Shane Jenkins in house recently doing SEA Shonx trainings that
was a a free training from SECA and Shonex. We had a fantastic turnout for
that. We had a Mannington training. Anthony Falner was in the house doing heat welding training. We got Daniel
with Daniel's got a really mixed group back there. Some are very experienced, some have almost no experience. And
listen, all the credit to the ones with no experience because if you're coming to a heat welding flash cove training
and you've never done it before, you're you're in for a new world. That's right. But it's one of the areas
where we desperately need people, right? Yeah. That's where, you know, uh there's
a big shortfall in that in that particular skill set for sure. especially what you led with him uh out
doing right now pattern scribing and you know uh all of that stuff. It's
almost a lost art that is becoming more and more necessary with this biiobased
uh stuff. You can't just hack it in like a sheet vinyl. Lenolium's coming back in
a way and so is this PVC free stuff that'll tear like a piece of paper if
you try to maneuver it too much, you know. So, you've got to learn how to pattern scribe. Uh, it's one of those,
it's like building a tool box. You don't use every tool all the time, but
you certainly you certainly want the tool in the box when you need it. So,
you know, I I've I've got to mention one other benefit to going to the different
uh not just trainings, which you'll get this at trainings as well, but also at
like conventions and and um TIC and NEON, all these things is you'll start
to learn uh about the NFCT, about CFI, about CTEF, about NTCA. you. That's
where because one of the biggest things that when we did our survey years ago, but when we asked PE
installers why they were not certified, the number one reason was they don't know where they would even go. Like they
don't even know that you guys, the NASCT, many many many multitudes of
installers do not know you exist. Do not know CFI, one of the oldest, you know,
training organizations exist. like they don't know these things. So that's like
one of the number ones. The second one was, you know, why do I need C to get training? I'm I'm getting work and
making money now. That's kind of that's the real I'm making money. Why doing the
doing it the way I'm doing it, so why do I need to go do it, right? But the one
of the benefits you'll get is learning about adhesives and different tools and
all this stuff. And speaking of adhesives, if you want a standout adhesive for your tough project, make
sure to look up Diversify. Oh, diversify.
Diversify. Divergent. Geez. Sorry. Uh, Sunny, you know, I had
I had I had the old uh Diversify uh company on the brain. Look up Divergent. The old
diver gent himself, Sunny and Callahan, you know, does a great job making these adhesives. He he knows it in and out.
So, you can trust his uh, you know, his due diligence when these adhesives are made. If you have a demanding project,
go check out Diversity. Jes Divergent. Sorry, man. I
check out the NFCT, which I can't screw up because it's right in front of me on the screen. So hopefully Ashton cuts all
this out and anybody watching live, you guys give me a little bit of uh Diversified Sunny was was allegedly in
the house today. So hey, he's a he's a he's a floor nerd, so
that way you guys don't have to be. He does it all for you. But it's good to be a floor nerd with him. Yeah, the smartest men I know.
All my fumbling does not take away from the quality of the divergent adhesive. I'll tell you that. So,
he just wanted to say one more time to get it right. That's right. And, uh, kudos to the NFCT
who's here obviously with us today and they're doing a live training. So, uh,
wanted to mention both of those great sponsors of the huddle.
That being said, after I fumbled my way through it, thank you everybody. Uh, one
of the big things is you do learn about this stuff when you go to the I mean, you have no idea how many different
tools and things like that. I've bought tools that convince in particular
they they bring out new stuff. I mean, you get to be in the know by going to that stuff and then you'll almost
certainly get involved with training. So, are you clicking on any of these
comments? manufacturers for our trainings who have stepped up and they have donated so much to us to help with
the trainings because it not only helps promote their products but it just it just ensures that the guys have the right tools in
their hands when they're when they're doing projects and trainings. Yeah. Let me get your guys' feedback on
this. Uh Brian Scott says, "Training is better than a certification. Certifications never got me nowhere."
Oh, do you want me to go first? Hit it. All right. So I I will
agree to disagree right there's some truth in what in the first part where your training is better than no training
right and in some cases some manufacturers have changed their policies and no longer certify they only
train which is which is fine because you know it carries a label. Um however
if you can get training and certified in specific disciplines the benefit is not
the certification itself saying oh I'm certified. The benefit is the backing that you get from the manufacturer. The
backing that you receive from the team the certification is a guarantee that
you will have great installers and great knowledge at your disposal all the time. Not saying
the training isn't going to give you that. I'm just saying the certification is is documentation
from that entity stating that you pass this class well enough to be considered
a certified installer and we will help you. We will back you. A training is
just a training. They're not training's the education and certifications are the test and at the
end of the day the uh a certification
look it got watered down and the the biggest
problem with the certification I think I'm just reading into Brian's uh comment here but I think what he's talking about
is like you know the fact that he's better gets him more work because his reputation gets increased. He does
better jobs so he's not, you know, going back and having to fix as much stuff and
doing rework and all this stuff. And certifications doesn't get him
anywhere. Well, part of the reason is, you know, I mean, frankly, the the
industry um doesn't have didn't have a standard. That's what the VTI is for is
to create some sort of a standardized way of looking at things. Number one.
Number two is the people that hire you just don't know. I mean, if installers
do not know who the NFCT or CFI or NTCA or CTEF or any of these acronyms are,
then certainly the homeowner and the the the general contractor and the people who
hire us to do our skill, they don't have a clue. And um you know, with it, you
got this mix between it getting watered down uh easier. I mean, you can get a
ceramic tile certification online. So,
okay. So, that's a problem. Like, that's that's that waters it down. Um, really,
I agree with him that training impacts you more, but I do think certifications have their
spot. If nothing else, if if the organizations will make certifications
as hard as they should be, then they'll start to like at least tell the installer where they're at, you know?
Yeah. And you use it as a gauge, just like a test at school. It's not um the
difference is in certifications, you either pass or fail. You either are certified or you're not. In tests, you
get a score, which is why I created the VTI. Like, we created the VTI because of
this stuff. Uh the the fact is is you get a score at school and in education,
you're going to get a score. So, you scored a 68. Well, you know, you have some work to do uh to to get better for
the next class. certifying bodies I believe need to be strong but then very
transparent on the where that student did well and did not do well so that
they know what to go train more on. I've had plenty of projects in the past
that have come across my desk because they were looking for somebody with a certain skill set and a certain
certification though. So yeah, like there is a value to the certifications
at a certain level and like Doyle mentioned, is there a different dollar value for being certified not? And it
really depends on who your projects are coming from whether or not. But like say
especially commercial projects, they're looking for somebody with a certain skill set and a certain amount of certifications. That's what we're doing
back there. CFI does it all the time that people are looking for like a C2
minimum installer to install the job and we've gotten a lot of those jobs over the past.
So, and those are people whoations. Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. the clients who are who are aware that that exists, they they start
wanting to make sure that that they're that their flooring is being installed by a certain level of installer because
they are intertwined in the industry or know someone who's very tight-knit and giving them the information that they
that they need to get the best product on their floor. Well, I think it'd be way more cert like
there's no downfall for an architect to specify a certified
person. they they're the other problem with certifications and I've pointed this out before is that there's so many
of them and so just saying you know XYZ certified
um doesn't always equate to the level of certification the right certification
needed to do that. So an R1 you should not be installing a casino. That's what I've I've uh you get a R1 certification.
You should not be, you know, doing an axe minister double glue down, but you're certified. And so you check that
box on the spec. And there's been some some uh downfall
uh around at least around here. I don't know about nationwide, but there's been downfall in in our market where those
types of things happened and kind of ruined that that momentum that you know there was some momentum for CFI in
particular uh getting specified here but very very very very rarely now. Um, and
I I just think it's understanding all of that. Uh, which again is just about simplifying and having a standard. You
know, we talk about licensing a lot like I need a licensed electrician or
industrial electrician license. Like there's there's
things that they can point to to make sure that the person has the minimum level of qualification needed to do the
job. Right. And and that's that's the thing and and back to to Brian like there's a
lot of people out there who have gotten training but no certifications who are doing very well. Um and when they
changed the spec out of a lot of um when architect architects started changing
that spec from certified they changed the word to qualified. There's a lot of people who don't have certifications who
have a lot of training who are qualified. So well that was push we had to go we I
think you were on the call with uh with me and some other people uh trying to identify what
identify it. Yeah that was several years ago but anytime you come up with these terms you
got to know what it means and then it can fall apart. Um y you know Doyle asks uh thank you for all
the comments by the way Doyle uh can you have one without the other? Certainly like like Jose was just talking about
like you can be highly trained and be every bit as good as a certified guy.
Making sure you're highly trained is more important than going and trying to get a certification in mind.
Correct. Like that's what's going to make you the money is teaching you how to be what you
are. Like how to be a good carpet installer or a good resilient guy. like
that's what makes you the money, not the actual certification in in some regards. Now, back in the day when Forbo
certified and and Armstrong certified and Mohawk, like all the manufacturers
certified, then it really had a little bit more meat to it, I think. Um, but as you guys know, most of those
are gone. I think Protect All still certifies. Um, no, it's not called a certification
anymore. Factory trained. Factory trained. Okay, fair enough. Well, that word carries a lot of baggage, the old certified word in both
both ways. Um, so yeah, I mean the the the
biggest benefit I can see is um having happy customers that come
back and ask you to do more work. That's that's always been the best, you
know, comes in because yeah, that gives you the best that's best shot at getting
paid is having being well trained. So that that goes right to this other question that that Doyle as additional
training can lead to uh additional income through side hustles that are related to flooring. Is that correct? I
mean, you know, everybody knows that the more you learn, the more you do, right?
If if you're learning something and you're passionate about it, like I said,
the whole learning thing, training, right? Training and certification isn't anything without experience, right? You
need to put the time in as well. And these side hustles that you get when you learn something new and you're excited
and it comes across, someone says, "Hey, can you do this?" And you're like, "Hey, just you know what? Yeah, I just learned
how to do that or I just took a trading class." You're going to want to go exercise that muscle to get better and
to see what you can do on your own without, you know, without the safety of the classroom, without the safety of the
other installers. You're going to feel more comfortable getting out there and trying it and
doing it. And that's where the side hustle comes. I mean, everybody starts with a side hustle at
some point. They're doing it if they're working hourly for somebody. Well, I I don't know many uh installers
that didn't have a side job over the weekend here and there. Although, I I do got to say that um it's a little more
advanced than the gig gig economy, like going and jumping in Uber and driving on
your off time or something like you you can't uh you shouldn't do side jobs in my
opinion if you're not properly trained in in that skill. But uh so I agree with
his um his question slashc comment and really
this was directed at you Scott so he would like to hear your opinion about it but um I do think that you know when
you're when I got really good I found that I didn't have to do side jobs
well that's how I cut my teeth and I made my mistakes when I was a young installer was doing side jobs but I was
also I told my son the other day that I He was asking me when he could get certified. And it's, you know what I was
doing when I was your age? I was seaming up scraps in the garage trying to get better at what I did. I
had a carpet that I struggled with. I was cutting carpet in the garage, putting seams together,
trying to get better at it. The other thing that these trainings do, and I don't think it's focused enough
on, it just it can really help teach you to how to carry yourself as an installer
and as a business person because you guys have all met them. Some of the
best installers I know have no business talking to a homeowner, talking to a customer. Just they don't have that
skill set at all. And that is definitely a learned skill as to how to present
yourself when you walk up to the house. I grew up in a time where like guys were
putting their cigarette out in somebody's driveway. They smelt like a brewery. They came in in a beat up van
leaking oil all over the driveway. Like now I drive a brand new truck. I won't
park in somebody's driveway period. I'm parking out on the street because I have been there before and I
do not have to take that chance. Right. So there's so many things I never even thought that's why I do that.
Yeah. But there's so many things you can learn from going to these trainings from professionals
that again that will bring you more work too because that homeowner if you're doing
residential is going to recommend you to the neighbor whereas if you show up and
you haven't showered and people can tell. So yeah, you know, I I
want to add to what you just said where you said that'll bring you more work and and just so everyone like my perspective wasn't about getting
more work, right? It was about getting more of the work that I wanted versus more work. I wanted to
like Paul said, I at some point he stopped doing side gigs, right? He didn't have to. That's the kind of work
you want. You want the kind of work where you're steady, you're consistent, and you don't have to do the seven days
a week. I mean, by all means, if you want to go out and, you know, I I also say, I mean,
it's one heck of a way to go out and make a couple grand over uh over a
weekend or on a Saturday. There's not many opportunities out there for that. But I did I did figure uh as I
got better and um got more of the work that I was good
at uh you know I did get certified I started doing high quality jobs. I was
making more money and I just didn't have to. I didn't in fact it started becoming
like I was pouring myself into my job so heavy uh and my craft that um I didn't
want to do side work anymore. Uh you know the the extra money wasn't I I made
enough and the extra money wasn't worth it at that time. So it was more of like
just getting like it wasn't about money. I think it's when it became not about
money that money came easier. When it became that I just wanted to be really good and do do really good job
and and and kind of pour myself into the craft, well, that's when I started
making more money and then I didn't have to do side jobs and I found out I really didn't want to. So
I think the goal is to get to a point where money is not the is big of a concern and quality of life is is is a
much higher quality higher concern than making money. Spending time with the
family recharging. There gets to be a point in your life where there has to be more than making money. And I I I hope
that everybody gets there at one point in time at some point in time. It's hard to get that mindset sometimes
too when when you don't see the uh the light at the end of the tunnel, but um
you do got to shift the mindset a little bit at some point and it does help. Well, the whole behavior changing the
behavior that I think what we're talking about in general is like industry culture. I mean
personal company culture is important but really industry culture of training
um and uh having that level of respect like uh Doyle uh again says there's so
much that retailers and GCs can learn especi learn especially learn to have
more respect for installers and become team players instead of boss and laborers
you So, I don't know. My my approach to this typically is like
in the past I had a lot of those combative things with like GCS as an
installer and then I learned that as I got better uh I if I they didn't want to
tick me off anymore. It was so it's such a change almost a such a night and day
difference because if I left their job they couldn't find anybody as good as me to come and replace me. So they couldn't
just it was more like hey instead of like you guys are supposed to be done with that area and
whatever they're like hey what can we do to work together to get that area like uh more ready so that you can move into
there. It was like totally different approach to me because if they came off
like complete jerks, I'd say, "Look, I don't need this stuff today. I'm out of here. I'll see you tomorrow. You know,
if you don't know how to I never really had to do this, but that's how I would have done it, you know, like I'll see
you tomorrow." Like, good luck getting the job done without me. Well, they know that that possibility exists in the
world. And at the end of the day, they couldn't find anybody at my quality that
quick to come in and take over or nothing. So, you do get treated differently
if you present yourself as a professional and you are a high quality
installer. Like, you put down stuff and you care about it and you care about the long-term viability of that floor. At
the end of the the whole scenario, like they want you there. And it's a nice feeling to control the job
site. Yeah. Well, and and so and that goes back to
getting the the projects and the jobs that you want rather than the ones you have to take, right? Like you put
yourself in a position to to be considered a a good enough installer or
a well-trained installer in in that specific discipline to where they understood that there was value there
versus you're just a body there to show up. And and you're right. same approach
before far as I'm gonna shake you off the ladder if you don't get out of my room to hey, how much longer do you got
up there? This is my game plan for today. And if I can't get to it, I don't really have a reason to be here. But if
you're only going to be up there for 15 minutes or something you can return for and let me get this done for you, then you can have it all day tomorrow. You
know, it was that that teamwork, that dance, that back and forth. and and
to say that everything um still goes smooth like that, I'd be lying. But at the same time, it's
that's what we strive for. We try to strive for peace now through the whole thing. But the point is is you're trying to
work together and they want you on the job and they want you there. And because of that they treat you I I get treated
way better and and did uh as I became better not because like
um well first off I carried myself differently probably uh but secondly it
was just like I said they want you there. They really do want you there.
They want good quality guys there. And the the the more you are that the more you ex uh are workable, you understand
projects whether it's a residential or commercial and you're able to like make
those suggestions that you just said like, "Hey man," and you're able to work with other uh trades and do all that,
man, you are such a value on a job site, but if you don't learn those scale skills and get around the people um and
I wanted to point out one thing and Daniel's joining us now, so I want to point out one thing. What Scott said
earlier is that there's different levels of installers in the back that are
learning from uh the NA NFCT right now,
you know, taking the heat welding flash coat course. Those guys are they they are way better
off than they know because they're going to learn that skill. But just like you said, now they have they're surrounded.
I hope they're exchanging phone numbers and that they can talk to the really good ones can get, you know, are willing
to take a call from, you know, James out back or whatever. Like that happens from
trainings all the time where guys exchange phone numbers and next thing you know, you're getting a phone call from one of the guys you trained with.
It's like, "Hey man, you were at that Nora class with me and I'm having, you know, I thought I did pretty good in my
box with the wax and cold weld, but I am struggling. What? Here's my scenario."
And you I I had those phone calls like we get those phone calls and I know you
guys do, too. And that's the benefit. That's my my whole point to this.
We can't hear you. You're going to have to get real close to Scott. Just go like right up to his
ear. Oh, no. He's got the earpiece in. Yeah. I don't know why both of them aren't working. You can hear me now.
Yep. Yep. Okay. Uh that's the crazy thing. You you mentioned Norah. There's a guy here that
is he's uh 65, I think he said. Huh. And he's here just for the training
portion. He's like, I don't want the certification. He said, "I just want to come here because I've already been
doing this and I got taught by someone and I want to make sure that I'm doing it right." And he's like, "I I don't He
He had a store and he was um you know, bidding and everything." He was like, "I just want to be an installer and
I just want to make sure that I'm doing doing the best that I can." And he was like, "And uh I know you guys because of
like social media and stuff." He said, "And Crystal was at the Norah certification with me when I did it." So
that was what, like two years ago. So he was like, "Man, she's a great installer." And I said, "I know. She's
probably better than me." So I don't know what's more impressive is that at 65 he's recognizing that he
might have missed something or that at 65 he knows how to use social media. I
don't know what's more impressive. Well, he he's just one of those guys that's like, you know, never stopped learning. But I just wanted to pop in
here real quick and see that's pretty cool and stuff like that. Okay, give us your uh give
give us your twominut uh like uh synopsis of how the class is going and
and uh I mean how how the training up there. We've got um quite a bit of new people
here that have never even touched anything. So it's a a learning curve for
for them and I have to kind of go into things a little bit more in depth. But the the good thing is is that everyone
wants to learn. Even the guys that, like I said, that do have experience in it are still coming and saying, "Can you
explain this to me? Why would you do it like that?" And I would when it's
something big, I'll I'll, you know, let everyone know. But if it's something very specific to what they got going on,
I'll just let them, you know, talk to them one-on-one. But I mean, the the amount of people here that are here
specifically because one, they know there's a need in this specific training, um, they they see that market,
but two, it's like not only do I want to learn this, it's just like I just want to be better in general.
Well, I love that there's some guys, young guys, or I shouldn't say young. I
don't know how old they are, but you know, newer, less experienced guys taking the class. No matter what that I
mean, like, go get it, guys. If you're watching this, like just because a lot
of people don't do it because they're scared even. Just go do it. You know what I'm saying? Jump in there. Go get
that certification and training. Doyle is asking what manufacturer tools we're
using in the class. Um, we are using probably every
manufacturer. It's not just one or the other, right?
Um, we've got Crane here. We've got Turbo Tools. We've got Gunlock. We've got Roberts. It's we've got
any tool that anyone could use, we got here so they can try everything to see
what they like. We've got Stubby. So, but I'm going to get back out here because I know these
guys are are going to have a lot of questions. We were just working on um Patter Scribbing Flash Cove and one of
the guys right before I was done cutting everything in, he said, "I'm gonna have to see that like three more times."
So, sounds like you got your work cut out for you, my friend. Yeah, appreciate you guys. All right, thanks Daniel. Thanks for
coming and uh popping in, brother. Um, I want to add to to Doyle right here about uh what manufacturer tools. Um,
you know, there's it's like training, right? You know, I know there's multiple trainings for the same type of material
or discipline and one tool is not a one tool fits all. you're gonna have to find
the right one that resonates with you. And same thing with the Flash Golf tools and everything that he's using in there.
It's the the ergonomics of each tool are slightly different, but one might fit someone's hand better than the other and
you might be more comfortable and Yeah. Yeah.
You find your brand and the And you stick with it, the type that that you like the most and you just kind
of stick with it. Yeah. Yep. 100%. But you got to try them on. Duth. Yeah,
there you go. But um what I was getting at is is uh these trainings and the reason for for the the passion is you
take different trainings of the same same u discipline or you go to multiple different trainings because you're
learning something new. You find the your group, you find your people that help you find the passion that make you
want to learn more or help or make you want to be part of the education process for everyone. And that's where this
episode comes in today is because you start getting more involved. You do
and you and if you are slightly passionate, you'll become more passionate. But if you take a chance and
get involved and you're not passionate to start out with, you'll find that you're more passionate than you than you
think you are. You'll find something. Definitely find some at the at the core. Yeah,
100%. And and that's Scott, you are not coming through for some reason all of the sudden.
Daniel probably clogged it with all of his ear wax. That's disgusting.
Well, I got to share this one because I love sharing uh stuff when they say you are right. You are right, Paul. Yeah.
uh the better you get, the more knowledge you know, the more respect you get. Uh you get from them and even start
leaving the ones that don't appreciate you and get the more professional GCs.
What he's talking about is firing clients and that's about as good as a
situation as you can be in. You finish up a job and you're like, I'm not doing work for that guy no more. And I'm going
to let him know that's the last job I'm going to do for him. And that is about
as Yeah. Oh, yeah. A little bit. You're a little light, so you'll have to speak up, but we can hear you. Um,
but there's not much better feeling than being good enough to to fire a client.
Well, there's another another thing, too, like not as necessarily firing a client, but when you're partnering up
with people and and I'm going to go back to when I was younger, it's like this is
the floor guy. This is Jose, the floor guy. It's not like that anymore. It it's
this is Jose, our flooring professional, right? like the introduction is
different when you've paid your dues, you've invested your time and efforts
into being better at your craft, not only for for your company, um, but for the others that you work for. And to be
introduced like that, and I'm sure you guys are introduced like that as well, not only by another flooring company,
but your peers and even the general contractors when you're meeting owners and and trying to reassure them that the
process in which their project is going to be installed is going to reflect the
value of their investment in in their flooring. That is hands down like a
great way to introduce yourself. And it also does feel good to not go work for somebody anymore if you if your values
don't align. Yeah. You just don't have to work for every single take every job anymore. You just
like you said more of the jobs you want. Well, we're c we're coming up close to the end. So, Scott, would you I I want
to uh have you kind of give us a the you're you're a trainer. You you do this
stuff. Uh what can what can you say uh
outside of just like hey you're going to get the hands-on and you're going to get this experience but
and meet these people but what what about um from a from a trainer
standpoint when you have new you got new students coming through on different
courses what kind of standard um I don't know how to say what standard
attitude or standard like um person is coming through your the courses are they
of all flavor I know different experience levels but from a an approach
to training from a culture of training standpoint is many is this many of their first go
around like tell us a little bit about almost the state of training
a lot of the time can you guys hear me all right now yeah am I loud
It depends on the age of the student. If you have an older student, they feel
more comfortable about themselves. The younger students, they're a little more shy. They're they're afraid to get in
there at first. So, you really have to open up and make them feel comfortable to use their hands because most of these
kids when they use their hands, the rest of it comes easy. That's what they know.
It's I don't know. as a trainer, those are the ones you love because those are the ones that are coming and they're
soaking it in. And it really helps us older guys to reinvest and spend some extra time with
them. And because a lot of these guys, they want to hear about us as trainers.
And we're trying to take the focus off of us and we're trying to put the focus on them and what they can do, but they
also need to see what they can become. And that's that's that's huge. That's
huge. But it's really the age difference. The older guys, a lot of them are a little more skeptical at
first. They always are because we're old. We know it all. Younger guys are more like a sponge.
But at the end of the day, at the end of the week, we get them all in the same place. That's pretty cool.
Yeah. Are you seeing um an influx at all of some younger generation
getting in like through the 90s, late 90s, and
certainly through the early and mid 2000s, like uh the training that I would witness,
I'd say late mid 2000s and on, the trainings that I would witness Um it's
like people were there with uh not not looking didn't really want to be there.
Let me say that you either had to get it because a spec said to install this product you have to go do this training
and I've been to some of those uh um older guys in that scenario almost
begrudgingly taking it. What I'm hoping is that we start over the next few years
seeing young guys coming in because they just know that's the right thing to do. Like we're this isn't rocket science,
guys. We're the right thing to do is go get properly trained. That's the right thing to do. And I'm I'm curious if that
is showing its head a little bit.
The young guys that are in the industry, yes, they're wanting to get trained, but we still face the hurdle of getting
the young folks actually in the building in the first place and with a knife in their hand and a pair of knee pads on
because let's be honest, what we do is hard work. And yeah, we're in a culture right now where a lot
of people want to take the easier road, right? So, can thank only fans for that one.
Is never gonna go away. I I really feel like last week Nick was here, the National Institute of Flooring
Inspectors, there was an AI specialist here talking a whole day and there's a
lot of things that we do on the floor that it's going to be tough for that to get replaced. So,
yeah, at least in the next next foreseeable future, you got a job if you're good in this industry. Like, it's
not getting overtaken by AI. But I'll tell you what is getting overtaken by AI is the easy jobs.
the like I've told this story. We we completed 14 agents last week. We're
just setting up some infrastructure now at our company. Like the really low uh
low skill, easy repeatable jobs even at my company, we're we're automating that
entire thing and but I can't automate my
install. So what does that give me the ability to do as an indust as a company and what we are so excited about at our
flooring company? We get to focus on our operational excellence. The installers
being excellent, our deliveries being on time and like that stuff is where we get
to focus on on the front side building the relationships and on the back side operational excellence through great
installation. And uh I couldn't be happier with that type of a setup.
That's where AI is coming in handy and and and expediting, right? One one
person can do the job of five now as long as they understand how to navigate and operate a system. Um but the hand
skill and you like like uh you just asked Scott about the installer, right? And YouTube, we can't replace what you
what you have to do with these. You can't replace that. But AI is probably going to come through
behind you now with one of these and say this is not up to standards, right? This
is you see a world where uh I I hope I'm out of that by then. I don't need the
Lord watching my install. I used to I used to really cringe when when a customer would stand over my shoulder
and the helicopters do do work. uh kind of the Facebook meme of a of a customer
hovering you. So, I hope that doesn't uh uh Doyle wants to be a YouTuber and that
is what my 16-year-old uh said he wanted to be. Uh
and I crack up and I'm like, you know, even that's getting taken over by AI, but what's not is this stuff. So,
stay true. Doesn't want to get into only things. We'll be happy with that.
All right. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh if you feel so
inclined, smash that like button, subscribe to our channels, give us some uh love, tell us uh you know, some
comments of what you want us to talk about in the future, who you want us to bring on. Uh that's been lacking a bit
here recently. So, uh if you're watching this, we'd love to hear from you. Uh so
either jump on the podcast and give us some topics. Uh we love that stuff. So I
want to thank Scott for taking time out of his training. Thank you, sir. And to join us today and thanks to
Daniel for boopping in for a minute. We love what you guys are doing up there. Keep up the fight of the good fight
there, sir. And uh we we certainly appreciate you guys and all that the
NFCT is doing for the industry. uh at we need more more more more people who care
about this and uh are willing to stick their necks out there a bit and preach
the good word that that again it's not rocket science. It the right thing to do
is to go to school. The right thing to do if you're going to be a doctor is go get educated or an attorney or any other
we electrician like any of them. So treat this
doing one thing too and is now partners with trade tap.
Amen. We're all getting on board and joining the bandwagon. So there we go. Well, we appreciate that. And yes, uh
NFCT is is uh uh getting a training hub. We're launching that and uh
fantastic. Yeah. And um it's just it it credentializes, you know, at the end of
the day the VTI that I've mentioned a few times. if you don't know about it, is simply a credentiing and cataloging
system that allows for the installer to have an awesome profile and show off what they uh what they can do uh in
terms that anybody can understand, an expert, a master, an artisan, like you
understand these terms. And so the market has uh responded very favorably to the VTI and we appreciate the NFCT
for for joining us in this uh this this um I hate using the word revolutionary
but it is ch it is changing the industry and uh we really appreciate the the
entities that are joining us and NFCT amongst them. So thank you so much Scott
and we appreciate you guys over there. Uh, Jose, love you, man. Glad you're
always here with me. You got here and middle school baseball's over. So,
so he's back in studio. Uh, so if you guys like what you hear, make sure to
again follow us, you know, subscribe to our stuff. And that's what we do this for.
Well over 200 episodes, and we do it for you guys. So, and if you don't like it, share it with everybody and complain about everything
that you don't like about it. Just share, share, share. Say, "I don't like these people." Yeah. Bad publicity is just as good. Yeah.
Yeah. Good news, bad news is better than no news. All right, my friends. Thank you so much for the day. And thanks
everybody for joining us in all the comments. Sorry we didn't get to all of them, but uh we were having great conversation over here. So, thank you so
much. We're out.
