The Huddle - Episode 197. Training, Certification & Standards: Who Decides What “Qualified” Means?

This week on The Huddle, Paul, Daniel, and Jose take on a topic that affects every installer, business, and organization in the trade — training, certification, and standards. With more programs, credentials, and expectations than ever before, the question becomes: who decides what actually counts?

In This Episode:

• The role certifications play in today’s flooring industry

• Where training adds value — and where it falls short

• Who sets industry standards (and why it matters)

• The balance between real-world experience and formal education

• What “qualified” should actually mean for installers and businesses

Because at the end of the day, it’s not just about having credentials, it’s about proving your capability where it counts. Why This Episode Matters: At The Huddle Podcast, we believe Forward Progress comes from raising the standard — not just talking about it.

⬇️ Don’t miss our sponsors who help make The Huddle possible:

🔧 ShagTools.com

Your go-to source for professional flooring tools, supplies, and accessories.

🛒 Use code HUDDLE10 for 10% off your first order!

👉 Shop ShagTools.com

🚀 Go Carrera

Build your profile, prove your skills, and connect with contractors—all in one place.

👉 Learn more at GoCarrera.com

🛠️ Stubbi Tools by Preferred Flooring

Installer-designed tools that work as hard as you do.

👉 Check out Stubbi Tools

NAFCT

NAFCT is a leading provider of flooring solutions, offering top-quality training, certifications, and support to elevate the industry.

👉 Learn more: https://www.nafct.com

🔹 Divergent Adhesives

Innovative adhesive solutions crafted for performance and reliability in the flooring industry.

👉 Check them out: https://www.divergentadhesives.com

🔗 Meet all our sponsors & partners: https://thehuddle.team/sponsors

Stay Connected & Join the Conversation!

The Huddle Podcast is where the flooring industry comes together to connect, learn, and thrive! Recognized as the #1 podcast in the flooring community, we provide an unmatched platform for professionals to discuss everything from installation techniques to industry trends.

At The Huddle, we’re all about driving Forward Progress—empowering seasoned installers, contractors, and flooring enthusiasts to grow, innovate, and lead in their craft. Whether you’re looking for real conversations, actionable insights, or inspiration to take your career to the next level, The Huddle is your home for real discussions that matter.

Want to be a guest on The Huddle? Email forwardprogress@thehuddle.team

We want to send a special shoutout to our sponsors!

FloorCloud
FloorCloud revolutionizes jobsite management with its cutting-edge platform, allowing contractors to remotely monitor ambient conditions like temperature and humidity in real-time. Paired with rugged sensors and instant mobile alerts, their technology ensures installations meet manufacturer specifications, reducing liability and enhancing quality control. Learn more at https://floorcloud.com

Go Carrera
Create your FREE Installer profile at https://gocarrera.com and become part of the future of the industry TODAY!
GET TRAINED! Find a list of training dates here: https://gocarrera.com/resources/training/

Preferred Flooring
Preferred Flooring proudly introduces Stubbi Flooring Tools—designed by installers for installers. Stubbi tools are crafted for precision, durability, and ease of use, helping flooring professionals tackle any project with confidence. Explore the full Stubbi line at https://preferredflooringmi.com/stubbi

Please visit our new website! https://thehuddle.team

What is up, guys? Welcome back to the Huddle, the number one podcast in

flooring. We're here every week to help you guys forward progress in your flooring career. Simply put, we're here

to help you win, even when we stumble over our words, which is every single time,

which is almost every single time. For our new viewers, welcome to the team.

Happy to have all you guys on here today on the podcast as always. Mr. Daniel and

Jose Gonzalez. What's up? He only says this week, that's all.

Well, yeah. I mean, almost every time. Should I? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So today's sponsors, I want to give a shout out to NFCT and

well, let me just not bring in Divergent Adhesives because NF NFCT doesn't make

adhesives. So, you know, let's let's use them uh Soul and alone. Uh I think

they're the best trainers in resilient flooring. Catch one of their upcoming trainings.

Uh we highly encourage it. Not only highly encourage it, we want you to go.

So, click on the QR code if you're catching this now. If you don't, we'll pop it up a little bit later. But NFCT

is doing some great stuff over there with their training. So, support those guys. Fill the classrooms. It's going to

start to matter big time. So, the VTI is live. People are we're growing at a

rapid rate now all of a sudden. And um make sure that you're taking

opportunities to go get your uh training with the NFCT.

Another one of today's sponsors is Divergent Adhesives. Sunny knows what

he's doing over there at Divergent. If you got a project that is tough

uh with like, you know, demanding job site conditions and you need an adhesive

you can rely on, click on that QR code right there and go see Sunny at divergent.com.

I believe it's divergent.com. divergent adhesives.com. Divergentadadhesives.com.

Sorry, there. Uh, you can click on the QR code. You ain't got to listen to me. So, check that out. Uh, they make great

adhesives. I mean, anybody I've talked to that's used them um will uh tell you the

quality, the the ease of use for the installer. So, go check them out.

and trade tap the VTI is another sponsor for today. Uh it's

all fed by all this. Anyway, this is you the industries training all in one place

there for you to go build a profile and a career and online resume. Sell

yourself, set yourself apart and uh compete in a marketplace. But not

with handyman, not with hobbyists, not with weekend warriors. Compete with like-minded

individuals. That's what we're talking about over there at the VTI that brought

to you by Trade Tap. All right, guys. So, today's topic is

training, certification, and standards. Who decides what qualified means?

just to that might be a little uh mindbender, but really what we're saying

is training, certification, and standards are are the building blocks of

of qualified. But so often we hear somebody say, "I want a qualified

installer or send me a qualified installer, a qualified installer." I I

hear it all the time and I'm like, "What do you mean like to what level?" Um and

and and and who decides right now in the bid documents, it'll say that too. They they want you um in some of

the stuff that I've been bidding lately, it's in the submitts, one of the submitts that they want is the qualifications for the installer, which

is crazy because that's you've already got the project by then. Mhm.

Well, and you know the the the specs. Well, maybe

not. I guess you could have. I mean, you got the specs before you bid it, but you got qualified installers, so doesn't

matter to you guys. But the the point is is that they'll say stuff like qualified

installer with experience in like project or something like that. Like who

how can how what does that do for anybody?

What does that mean? What does it mean, Basil? Well, who's doing who's doing the leg work, too,

right? Like if even if they say they meet all of those standards and the requirements, who's doing the leg work

for them? Um I think I've seen a couple projects where it says uh or the pre-qual submit some some projects that

you have done, right? Um yeah, that that's pretty often. I mean, we do pre-qualifications. You guys do

pre-qualifications. Those are usually standards or uh financial qualifications, you know, proven that

you can actually do the project. You know, not too often do they ask you what

level of installers do you have on your staff? Are you subbing? And if you are, how do you how are you quality

controlling? Any of that. That's what uh you know, this isn't a podcast about the

VTI, but that is what the VTI, right, uh solves. Well, our our term contract

for uh the city of GR does ask some of those specifics, and that's what I was referring to is

it's nice when they do at least you you have some way to kind of like set yourself apart, huh?

Yeah. Well, then then get the opportunity to to kind of submit some of our our certifications or qualifications

to them um before the projects come across the desk for bid, right? So they

know that all right, Preferred Flooring does uh have a certification for this

product, so let's make sure they get this bid. Yeah, there's um we had a conversation

with Beth Miller. It's been probably a year ago. Um there's a group of us that

if you got you guys remember that I think and it was it the talk was all about who decides what qualified is

and they she was trying to do some work for some manufacturers if I remember correctly

to like almost give a a definition to qualified

because it can mean a thousand different things. I mean qualified is indicating that there's a gold like qualified to do

a vestibular carpile or qualified to do

um you know a vestibula ceramic or is it qualified to do a shower system with

gauge porcelain panels or like what what level of qualification?

So obviously the the discussion is going to lead us right to where uh the

huddle always goes which is training certifications mixed in with your years of experience

you know like getting trained getting certified taking those opportunities to

do so there is a lot of good work going into the training uh of installers uh

you guys as the installers have to get, you know, on board with, you know,

setting yourself apart by going and getting trained and educated in your craft. And I know a lot of our listeners

are like, I'm preaching to the choir, but uh there's also I think some that

have been on here before, they're like, you know, will argue about the certifications or the the trainings or

whatever. And that um is this what we talked about, Daniel?

Was this the Yeah, kind of the banner. Who uh who can actually say right? Who

who's going to do that? Is it going to be the training entities? Is it going to be the manufacturers? Who says who says

that you're qualified? Yeah. And how do you who actually decides it? Yeah. Who decides it at the end of the day? Right.

And you know even even further than that and I know

so just so people know that you know trade tap is a sponsor so we are going to talk about them but that is kind of

how this all came to be too because even after that conversation we've talked about it right and it's like well you

talk about certified and then qualified and that's kind of where you came up

with the verified thing right because it's not just saying that you're verifi or you're qualified or you're certified.

It's like boom, let's come prove this and get that verification.

Yeah. Yeah. Verification of your uh credentials and verification of your

your your the level of quality that you uh I shouldn't even say quality, the

level at which your capabilities are. Denise says the industry. Well, I mean

industries. Yeah. Which one? Which one? Cuz we got

so many different disciplines in flooring. Is it hardwood, carpet,

ceramic, resilient, modular, resilient sheet? Like

the easiest answer to this is if you're doing Nora and you're Nora certified, Nora is saying you're qualified.

But look at what it requires is for you to go get trained

and certified. I would argue and I I made this argument in our discussion with

um with uh uh Beth is

like say just anybody saying you're qualified

is or if you selfre proclaim you're qualified. I think that word needs to go

out of the window because there's too many variables that go into

what not only what it means, but how does how does that apply to you could be a qualified

um you know resilient installer or LVP, whatever, but are you qualified to do

sheet vinyl, flash coing, heat welding kind of thing. Uh there's just a lot of

stuff into that word that's baked in that makes it really a a poor word to

use, so to speak, right? And um for the people who who don't understand and don't know um why

we're having this conversation, this really easy, right? Like anyone could go out and buy tools, anyone could go out

and get liability, anyone can call themselves an installer. Um

anyone can do that. Um it's it's not hard and we're in the majority of the

flooring industry isn't bound by by some kind of structured program where um you know we have an apprentice a mandatory

apprenticeship and and flow that way. So or even a license, right? Right. Or even a license. Right. And

we're not we're not put under the gun like the electricians and the plumbers. We don't have to pass uh you know

step-by-step inspections or inspections during certain parts of our process.

we just go and do it. And sometime you don't know who really knows

what they're doing um versus who don't until it's too late.

Yeah. And then then everybody loses. I would say if you do any core of engineer work, especially heavy core

work, we we're doing a few jobs and we've done them in the past and they will inspect. You got to call in for

inspections for each like your layout then or your waterproofing then your

layout and all your cuts. You got to display where all your cuts are going in

a visual format. Then then the installation you got to

get it uh inspected pre- grouting and then after that boom.

Oh, I actually like I actually like that process. Right. like that if they don't like something along the

way, you're fixing it before it becomes an issue. Yes. And to answer your question,

Denise, yes. In fact, uh the the different certifications, every

training, every certification will build your VTI ranking. Um so

obviously, u your years of experience matters. Um

but so does all of your certifications and your trainings whether it's any

entity. Um it impacts the your DTI

ranking. So yes are any disallowed.

No. Um they're they're all weighed. So even a an afternoon workshop in the the

tile world, they'll have afternoon workshops at your local scooter workshop or something.

Yeah, a scooter workshops even a little more maybe um involved, you know, but

you know those afternoon workshops you'll go for the NTCA at a Dile, you know, grab a sandwich, a box lunch kind

of thing. Even those are recognized as long as the entity themselves are

recording that you're there and we can verify it or I say we verify trade index

can uh verify it then it will impact your ranking.

So yeah everything's allowed. We just want to have uh I think as an

industry and we've gotten a lot of support here, the guys and me and trade tap folks and like all all flooring

people that I've talked to. I had a great conversation with a very large uh flooring contractor in Cincinnati

and uh you know he he made this comment. He said that. Do you guys remember the

the talk that at uh convention about AI and all that stuff?

Oh yeah. He used a term. He says, "Yeah, we see they've started implementing AI with

IBM." So they're a big company and and have been implementing some stuff with

IBM. and uh he said, "You know, it's getting uh to the point where all of

that that the only thing you're going to have to focus on and really put your

your your hooks into is your installation and your relationships." And I was like, "That's exactly what I

said." Uh, you know, he said it's the the middle stuff's going to get

commoditized, like estimating and all of that kind of stuff is getting commoditized. And I was like, "Yeah." He

said, "None of our uh, you know, most people's in the commercial world anyway,

most of their estimates are being, you know, taken off, at least the quantifications, the takeoffs are being

done either overseas or by AI. Uh, some people have in-house and estimators. We

still do. In fact, we're looking to hire uh you know, but it's more of

controlling the process as opposed to doing the process. We want the estimator who knows the process to control the

process. So, they're not losing their job. It's just they're going to be able to control the process and put out a ton

more projects. That's what I mean. It's more efficient, right? It's boom, you handle all this stuff that I would be spending all this

time on while I can do something else. come back to it and then you can you you've already doing two jobs at the

same time instead of one. Yeah, we had a I mean we were we're getting close to the point where

something that would take us a week to take off and get quantities for is taking 3 to four hours total to to get

the quantities and even to kind of review them and double check them.

So the the point here is if if you're an

installer, what I'm telling you is that the companies are going to start really focusing on your

ability to to do the work and if

and to prove that you can do the work. architects and and um and even some uh a

lot of end users like national account stuff is looking at adding qualifications to their specs. They've

tried it multiple times. Um but there there is a vehicle now uh verified in

trade index with your the ranking on there. They they love the idea of being able to put a hey, you need to be expert

level in tile on the verified trade index to touch our job. And because it's

an individualized ranking, well, that's for the guy that's on the project, not

just the company that won the bid. And so they're going to be there's going to be a lot of focus on workforce

development, which is a good thing because it's about time we really focused on workforce development now

that we have a system, an industrywide system that'll allow us to uh be able to

have a ranking. Think of it like um you know Ben says a lot is it kind of puts

us on par with licensing for um other in other trades like the plumbers and the

electricians and such. And so thus now that there's a ranking

system we can really focus on workforce development and

you know bringing in new new people. Uh there's a class going on there. There's so many of these

college programs launching through the

out there. I mean, it's it's going to get bunkers. There's a lot of money into workforce development. Uh I think I said

this a couple weeks ago on the podcast that BlackRock who is the largest asset

manager on the planet uh just earmarked like a billion or two billion dollars

for workforce development for the trades. Lovely.

Right. So I think it's uh and there's this these memes going across. I don't know. Have

you seen those, Daniel? Where it's like, uh, tomorrow's millionaires wear a blue collar.

Yeah. I mean, there's even on Facebook. The blue collar people are tomorrow's

millionaires. I think I get emails from from that, too. Bluecollar millionaires.

Yeah. So, the Yeah. So, take your I I think the

biggest thing is like we all

like really start to matter.

It's matter. It's just going to be um I think more focus on like are you doing

the things it takes to to be considered a

quality or qualified installer? Well,

again, that qualified bird is what we had a whole

trying to figure out what that means because they put that in their in I was wondering when that was going to

happen. Yeah. Kept qualified installers. Oh, there it goes. Going in and out. Paul,

did I lo I got lost and I'm back.

You were freezing for a second and then you blipped in and out, but

it was what I was saying. Yeah. And I mean the manufacturers can put you

through their programs and everything and that's that's great, right? Because any education is good education. It's

just how do we how do we not have to go through one for every single manufacturer? And that's

kind of where you take these other certifications through the different, you know, training entities and get it

like that because then it's more generalized. Um, there's value in both of them. I I would take both of them. I

mean, if if the NAFCT was around when I was getting my certifications, I would have been in there. And CFI is probably

one of, you know, what it does. Well, there's Denise says, "Where is CFI?"

Well, CFI has a lot of trainings that are in the system. They actually have a

training hub that's hooked directly into the VTI. So, anybody that has a training

hub is directly hooked into the VTI. But that that's a whole another podcast

really. The CFI the I here's the bottom line. When

training entities are focused on just putting together the best trainings possible and their courses are full,

that's when we're winning as an industry. And CFI has some really great trainings, particularly in, you know,

carpet, for example. They got the natural fibers. They got those

certifications with NFIC and and all of those. So CFI is a a big part of the

process because they're one of the main training entities. Uh NFCT is just about

anybody you can think of. I mean we the the verified trade index has CFI and

NFCT and uh NWFA and NA uh the NTCAS.

All the acronyms are in there. Uh if they're not in there, you email us and we'll get them in there. if there's a

particular training wet my whistle there. Um, but Nora

Schlutoter trainings uh like manufacturer trainings are are are

every one of them that that uh we know of uh feed it. So you can get trained

wherever you want. anytime there's a training in your area, you take it

and um I mean it it's going to impact

your overall ranking. I sent you guys a little private message for you to read from. Those are some of

the questions I had, but like I said earlier, I got to take off a little early today for baseball. So, yeah, Jose's uh you're you're baseball

today. It's it's baseball season today my son's first middle school uh baseball

game ever. So nice. So

let's go through some of Jose's stuff as he's kicking out. Jose, have a great afternoon. Good luck on the first

baseball game of the season, buddy. Thank you, sir. Thank you everyone. Um,

one of the questions you said manufacturers, should manufacturers require certification?

I think they the they have in the past when they provided certification but so many of

them stopped doing that. Um I mean Forbo does Forbo Forbo still has

some training but no certification and they they put their trainings through

the NFC or does the NFCT do any of theirs? We don't do anything with them right

now. Um I know install does some um

Armstrong Armstrong doesn't do anything anymore. Yeah. Um they all have curriculum that

could be you know administered through one of the training entities. So

yeah. Well, I think they the the question to his answer is it's like

there there's going to have to be something to control quality and and uh so there should be some level of

you know requirement to touch some of their products. There's no doubt about it. I'm just looking at it like in terms

of do you go to these things and and learn, right? Because like you said that

you have those things that you can go to after work that are only a few hours and that's all you're doing is learning, right? But when you're going to

certification, you want it to be worth it. And you know, looking at that CTI

that um when we were over at coverings with uh the NTCA and it was it's crazy.

It's like they say it's the hardest 25 square foot that they ever put in and it's like a one day thing and they don't

tell them you have to use this or you have to use that. It's here is the print, here is whatever you have here,

have at it. Just like the install competition. Yep. And it it has to be

like the more unobtainable it actually is, the

the higher it's going to be rated, right? It's you've got to have something that's going to be like, "Oh man, I took

that and I didn't, you know, pass the first time." And you like, I'll be honest, like when we went to Forbo, they

were like they they straight up told us, they were like, "You guys take too long." And it's like, "Okay, well these all these other

guys." So there there was 12 guys in the class that we went to and I think five of them passed and those are guys that

do that every single day. And it's like yeah, of course I'm going to take a long time. I'm trying to to

make it look good. Yeah. Well, those the

all those little metrics of a training like is it a pass fail? Like if you can

go to a a training and then the certification and still leave without a certification, that's a tough deal. And

those weigh those are worth a lot in our in the verified trade index. Those are

worth a lot when you those the way that they administer the curriculum

um is is considered at every level. So

when Denise was asking how how all that works or or even how CFI plays into it,

it's building the best trainings is, you know, you have lower level trainings

that you just want people to get some knowledge in their head, but you start to get in them intermediate or advanced

trains, those should be, you know, kind of pass fail. Uh if you can retake the

test, it should maybe be once. Uh, I was looking back at some old, you know, how

pe if you talk to some old-timers, they'll tell you that the Forbo and the Armstrong certification, particularly

back in like the 80s and such, was like super hard. And Armstrong, I found back

then you could retake it once and then after that you had to retake the whole course to to test out again. Um, now I'm sure

that there's other bits and pieces to it cuz I never took the Armstrong certification, so I can't speak to that

exactly. You took it? Yeah. Tell us about that. So, with the Armstrong, it was like um I

think it was a three-day thing and they kind of went over everything because it I took it back in like I want to say

like 2010 or something, right? So VCT was still pretty pretty prevalent

everywhere. And uh so they they did, you know, VCT, LBT, sheet vinyl, and then

Lenolium. And it it's kind of like we do with the NFCT where you have that first

certification and then you kind of touch on Lenolium, but you don't do any flashing or anything because that's an

advanced class. But I mean, they went over quite a bit. Um,

it's where I learned how to pattern scribe. So, I mean, that's one of the first

things I teach, too, because pattern scribbing, if you don't know how to do it, it can get you out of a pinch real

fast. I loved it. Uh, that's that a lot of

guys uh would be like, why are you pattern describing that? just warm it up

and and and and have the pack it in curl up every single time.

I'm like, dude, I I why not take a few minutes to pattern scribe this thing out and then I just go take that piece and

and it fits. the same thing. I'm sure like if you got

a Kevin Keefe or you know Dave or some of these places they're they're some of

these guys I should say they they know like on carpet there's the there's the

equal level of complexity in a lot of these carpets you start getting into your carands and all these you know

fabri and these manufacturers who make really high-end carpets there is a

specific perfect standard way of doing it. And then you still have to have a lot of skill. It's not just knowledge.

You got to have the knowledge and then you got to have the hand skills. And those are typically the the the best

trainings that we have found that that weigh the heaviest so to speak are the ones that have some hand has hands-on

and classroom time teaching you about why it matters that you do it that way

and then showing you how to do it. I like that level, that kind of um approach to training myself.

So Denise says that manufacturers will have to have some kind of partners. If there are more qualified installers,

they will be on board. And I don't think that it's necessarily that the manufacturers aren't on board right now because the manufacturers actually do

quite a bit. It's just everyone's looking at just one person to

solve everything when it's a collective. It's not just if we do this, the manufacturers should do this because

they already do quite a bit. Can can they do more? Probably. I mean, we we all could do more.

Well, I'll tell you one thing about that I've noticed

with all of this is the manufacturers

are still re relying so heavily on the retailers and dealers that it's our job

to make sure we have quality guys. And um I was talking to a manufacturer this

week about it. And and that's exactly what came out of his mouth is well, it's the retailer's job to make sure they're

putting quality guys on the the table. I I Yeah. Okay. But without ma some

manufacturer uh pressure maybe or something uh or at least recommendation,

you can fall in. it's still your product that's manufactured that gets put in

incorrectly because they didn't have the right level of guy to do that particular

carpet. So there has to be some some way, you know, some pressure from the

manufacturer to do things and not and they have done a lot from a money standpoint. And there just used to be so

many more um there used to be so much more manufacturers trainings that I

think that the NFCT CFIs the NTCAS that industry leaders are going to have to

continue to um prepare to be really

swamped over the next 5 years. It hasn't came yet and that's what is so crazy

these wave it's just like a a tsunami wave. The reason they're so destructive is cuz you you don't see them until they

hit you. And that's kind of what I see this thing is happening and I can see

it, but so many people are just going to wait till the wave hits them and then try with AI, right? If you if you

haven't started using it by now, you're already late to the game. So So Jason says that manufacturer training

is true certification and holds more weight. Other pay-for-paper organizations are just that. Now that

doesn't mean you will not learn something. It can just be open for scrutiny. Now qualified has different

levels. For instance, you can be formally, practically or deeply qualified. Formal, paper, certificate,

license, etc. Practically, you can be trusted and have demonstrated the ability to do the thing. Deeply, you

truly understand. And that that's it. I mean, um, a lot of that comes with your

relationships and that's how we build with our the the GC's and stuff that we

work with, right? It's they understand that we're talented in this one thing.

So, it's not that they have they have to get other bids, but they're

like, I really want to use you guys. And that's where a lot of the times we cannot be low and still get in there um

certification or not. Yeah. And that's that practicality that he was just talking about being trusted

and and and kind of you know having demonstrated that you have the ability

to be that high quality reliable person. And it's hard to

disagree with his statement although I would be a little bit I mean I don't

know about pay for paper uh organizations. I think there are I mean

there's some of that I mean there you get an online certification so I mean online certification stuff

there are those but if you don't train properly then the

at least Jason within the verified trade index the the training is not going to

weigh uh as much in the calculation of

that installers's ranking So from that uh standpoint, you're going

to get exactly what you pay for when it comes to uh trainings. Um and when I

what I say by that is make sure that the that the organization is is

you know putting the best foot forward. Now I can vouch that many of them are. Uh if you go to some of the trainings

and certifications that are out there uh they're they're not necessarily just pay for paper. It just depends on the uh

organization. There there was some scrutiny around that uh early on, but

many installers say that, but they've never been to a true uh highquality

training or certification. And I see it all the time on Facebook where they're like, "Ah, yeah, I'm not going to pay

lose money and then go to a training just to have a piece of paper." Well,

that piece of paper is different today. uh because now it can it goes on to your

ranking. It actually improves your ranking on a platform where you can literally show that you that you are you

are uh you know taking the right steps to become a quality

high in demand kind of installer. The rankings from rookie to elite artisan and everything in between. So, you know,

where you fall on that ranking is is the level of of your commitment to your

craft and the years of experience. Yeah. I mean, we weren't certified for

years and then once we did it, we pretty much dove right in, right? But

I mean, it wasn't like we were super big hacks. We were still trying to teach ourselves and reading specs and reading

articles. And it's just we didn't if you don't know how much the industry offers,

you're not you you just don't know, right? But once you're in it, you get you see all these other opportunities.

And that's just all it takes sometimes is, you know, these guys that are are the

ones that are really reluctant to do anything. All they have to do is try it one time and

then they get hooked. And I mean, so we've seen that. I've talked to when we

were down there watching the guys take that CTI test. I was talking to one of the the evaluators and he said that he

sees the same thing um on on that side too where guys are like don't need it

we'll never do it. They finally are like fine I'll do it. Then they're like, man, one, not only was that the hardest thing

I've ever done, right? But also like that that's where you get other

evaluators from. That's they're like, man, I want more of this. I need to to have a bigger hand in the pot. So,

well, we see it all the time. I mean, we t we talk about it pretty often when, you know, when somebody finally decides

to go take a a a certification or a training, they they almost always come

out of it like, man, I actually learned a lot more than I expected to. I thought I was just going to go in and blow it

out of the water. And um I can tell you one thing, I laid a lot of carpet there

that was done the wrong way. like I did it wrong

and um we just don't have that infrastructure

until we're and that's what we're trying to build is some infrastructure around the industry that can allow for those

things. But the infrastructure being like uh an apprenticeship program or

something like that where you learn before you get tossed to the wolves. when I was just getting going, I showed

a little bit of of uh affluence towards flooring or whatever you want to say,

like I I was uh I I enjoyed it and I was

pretty good out of the gate, but like that's just a I was just a good

helper. And my boss is like, "Yep, now you're in charge of this job. Go install 10,000 yards of carpet at this high

school." You know, luckily that was uh one of them good old double cuts and I

got through that job. In fact, we we um we replaced some of that here recently and I laid that like 28 years ago or 26

years ago or something crazy. Um it's always nice when you get those ones that you did a long time ago and you're

like you can like I think um we talked about it a few weeks ago and you revisit it and you're like, "Yeah, I did a bunch

of stuff wrong on this one." But well, the very next job I did a bunch of stuff

wrong, you know, it was like, "Oh, you did that. Now go do this one."

I had no idea what to do. Like, and you just keep trying and trying and then,

you know, you mess a lot of stuff up. And there's just easier ways to go about it than that. There's, you know,

connecting with CFI is a good way if you're in the carpet world. They have good other trainings,

but they're particularly very good at carpet and then your higherend carpets,

getting into your woven and all the the the fancy carpets that that uh Kevin

could tell you all about. like it's they're particularly wellversed and and

uh positioned to train you in that field. Uh there's also some uh they they

have a really great training for commercial carpets and they're coming out it may already be out but it's a

uh commercial modular well uh modular carpet certification. So, I mean, those

things are what matters when you start doing what Denise was talking about earlier when she made this comment.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, there you go. And I know a lot of people again are

going to be like, I don't need that. I've done a million yards of carpet tile, you know. And that's the thing

though, it's I don't know if they've ever stepped foot on one of these failures. And I'm talking failure where

it wasn't even a bad installer. Like it was a great installer. It's just

technology changes so fast. And if you're not keeping up with it, all it takes is using

the adhesive or not removing 100% of the old adhesive. That's all these things

take now. Well, the backing systems are totally different. You didn't have so many backing systems back in the day for

carpet tile. It was Milick and an interface back in the early days and you had two different ways in of installing

those and that was that. Nowadays, you got recycled backings and you got

freaking PVC free backings and PVC backings and some other mix of backing.

Like you have to understand the way that the the

not just how to put a square piece of a textile on a piece of flat concrete. You

got to learn how to first make that concrete at least flat and smooth. And

then uh after that you got to know what is the what is the uh other prep you

have to do particularly when it's in remodels. And then you got moisture testing and all these things that come

into play these days that didn't used to to matter. I'll tell you one of my biggest failures. I I think I've told

you this before, Daniel, but one of my biggest failures was a guy that was union trained that worked for me and he

he did a job and

it all failed like thousands of yards and did not remove the old adhesive.

said, "Well, it already had carpet tile over this old broad loom, so I re he refreshed the pressure sensitive

adhesive that was already down." Yeah. And Kevin, I loved way he says it's he said this a few weeks back. It

was something like uh releasable, not reusable.

So, uh I loved I love that note from him and and that's what it was.

That they they have a certification coming up in Wisconsin. I so I pulled it up and it does say it's bilingual too.

Nice. Uh residential one and two and uh LBP1

and laminate one certifications like back to back from May 5th through May

8th. So go say to Kevin

if you're anywhere close to Wisconsin, you ought to make it to that one. Kevin, are you training that?

I usually turn my ringer off. Are you training on that one, Kevin? If uh type a type a comment in there, let me know.

But so the whole talk of this whole topic is just always going to boil down to to me

qualified has to start with training and and certifying. like there's no way to

experience your way without either being under somebody who's certified and and

qualif qualified through that process, but then you you you don't get the

recognition of the effort you took to learn, right? So, it's always it's

always good to go to the source and and get that certification or get that training yourself.

I know I got trained by a guy that was Forbo and and Armstrong both certified

as almost everything. His name was Gary Bernard. Really good

installer here in in Kansas back in the day. He's been retired for probably 10

15 years now. But I still went and got certified on the certifications that I

could get to. Uh namely Nora. Uh that was a really good course to go through

and certification to get and even though I was I but that's why I

ended up getting master certified is because I did listen I did learn from him but then I wanted to get my own

credentials. I didn't want to say yeah I learned from I don't have all the acronyms behind my name. That'd be like

a doctor saying, "Well, I'm not a doctor, but I watched one." You know,

and I like that, Denise. Be part of a tribe. I mean, you do set yourself apart when you do this stuff.

So, Kevin says in Wisconsin, they'll be doing some pattern matching on Monday for free. So, even if you're not going

to be doing the certification, make sure you get there for some pattern matching

cuz uh Kevin may know a thing or two. Maybe we all know.

But yeah, I like we were talking about this before we even came on today, right? And it's

like you can say that it's got to be this person, it's got to be this person,

but it's a collective. And like you said, it's not just

are you qualified or who's qualifying you. It's just get out

there and learn and never stop learning. Yeah. I mean that that's

that's like a that's one of our core values if you're going to work for our company uh particularly is like

innovation and always being a learner. like we want if you are a learner,

you're teachable, you can learn new things, that shows a lot of quality that that trans uh transfers over to good

quality install. Yeah. So, my brother is commenting on here since he's not on. He

says, "The thing about training and certification, whether an installer has them or not, is at some point in their

life, they become a trainer themselves, helping out a friend, a family or family, helping out someone they met at

Home Depot." like it you do end up

not not necessarily training but at least leading them in the right direction, right? And it's real easy to

lead someone in the wrong direction when you don't have that knowledge to back you up.

Yeah, it's it's uh I I know that a lot of trainers out there can verify this,

but there's so many people who uh will say that, you know, they already know how to do something. And you know, God

bless them that they just don't know that they're doing something wrong. I I can attest to that in my early in my

career. I I did so many things wrong and I just did not even like it never I

didn't feel bad about doing it wrong because I thought I I You thought you were doing it right. Yeah. And

uh I was doing the best I could and blah blah blah. Well, you know, being being

trained is part of that whole thing. It's it's any industry needs proper

standards and and um verification like you got to go

that's where like that's what a lot of the industries asked for licensing, right? And we we had a whole podcast on

why that's very unlikely to ever happen. Uh but

licensing is about like learning and then proving that that you can do it and then you get a license for it. And

there's still people that do that and start cutting corners as soon as they get that license. Yeah. And that's where I think continued

education for all the training entities out there, one of the things you can do to make your training worth more and and

weigh really heavy in the algorithm of the V verified trade index is require

continued education. Very very few I can tell you do that. I

was running for my um my ICRI certificate because they do require it.

It's I think every four years, right? So, it's you take the test. It's the

the hands-on and the the written portion and then the fourth it's either four or

five years you have to reverify with another written test and then the next

time you renew, you have to retake the entire class all over again. I actually love that.

Yeah, that that continued education or getting continued education, building a

CEU uh units on a yearly basis to maintain your certification.

It would be a really good or maintain you know whatever level

certification. It have to be a certification, right? But to maintain your certification, if you had CUS

attached to that, the reason that is important is because things change,

backings change, fibers change, the the adhesives change, construction in

general and the the methods and means and methods of construction change. So,

you know, doing having a continued education is just part of having a really robust training um uh offer.

Sharing knowledge. Yeah, Denise, I I agree. And and I think that sharing

knowledge is one of those deals where your brother talks about it all the time, Daniel, and his comment kind of

alluded to it like you knowing what you're you're doing

and being trained yourself allows you to share knowledge. You don't get to do that if you don't have it. It's kind of the blind lead in the blind. And uh of

course that's what you know the verified trade index once again is meant to uh

assist with. Your brother says if if you want to be first chair in brand

band he's talking about playing an instrument. Okay, I got it. Yeah, good analogy. You

better get some practicing. Yeah, you got to get trained and then

practice. That's one of the things um with any train uh like effective

education system is like you train apply train apply train apply train apply

but the training doesn't go away and that's what I love about CFI and NFCT

like being around people like that they all just want to continue to get better and

He's he's saying some his voice texts, but I understood what he was saying.

So, right now, the industry lets anyone in, but it holds everyone accountable.

That's the gap where most of our problems live. That's what your brother's last kind of closing statement

that he sent over was. And I think that's freaking hits the nail on the head. The industry lets anyone in. The

manufacturers say, "Well, it's the dealer's deal." But they'll certainly

hold you accountable. And that barrier of entry um there

I mean think of that like you you can be held accountable for doing something you

didn't know you did wrong. So you better learn how to do it right. And a lot of

installers will not turn down work if they don't know what to do. I know I took a ton of work that

especially when you're brand new, right? It's like gimme gimme gimme. Mhm. And

you just go do it. But I would advise get tied in with CFI, get tied in with

NFCT, whatever your your kind of niches or your NTCA, NWFA,

get tied in with them. There's a great there's good communities around each one of them and they all kind of intersect

and you'll get to know different ones and different people. But being part of that tribe is as Denise said earlier is

uh is uh valuable and will help you really grow your business

and not only the entities, right? Because I was talking to HUD when we were in coverings and you know some of these manufacturers really want to see

people coming out to their stuff and doing mill tours and actually seeing how things are made so that way you have a

better understanding of the product. There's a lot that you can do other than

just, you know, relying on on an entity or two. There's so much out there that

you can learn. Yeah. And there's opportunities like you said. Uh did you go to Milikin?

I think Jorge did. Uh Jorge did. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of opportunities when you start getting tied in where they're like, "Hey, we'd like to have you on a mill tour and take

you and and show you how their products are made."

Kevin says that his competitor's brand is on on his VTI. How do I get my competitor's brand off?

I think you have to sponsor to get things removed, right?

I think it's like $2,500. You can make that payable to me, Kevin.

Um, I actually don't know what he's specifically talking about, but I'm I'm sure you'll get an email sooner

or later. Well, I look forward to it. With that, we've already burned through

an hour here, and I want to thank everybody for joining us today. Um, it

was a little bit of a a uh slow day in the comments, but uh just to reiterate,

check out the uh NFCT's upcoming uh heat weld and Flash Cove training. Where is

that at, Daniel? That is at um Bowmont Flooring over in

Calhoun, I believe. Right. There you go. Georgia. So, go visit the bow hackers

if you have any questions. just uh get that QR code.

Get that QR code. You have any other questions, just definitely you can reach out to me and I'll get you the answers.

If I don't have them, we'll get get them to you somehow. That's right.

Uh also want to mention Divergent Adhesives. Go check out uh divergent adhesives.com.

Go uh give Sunny some love. Buy some adhesives. H you'll be glad you did.

Yeah. I mean, we use them in the trainings and everyone is like, "Dude, this adhesive is great." And um I think

last time he the ones that he sent, I mean, they're only good for so long, right? So, he's like, "If you want

they're open already. If you want them, take them." Oh, yeah. Some of the installers were like, "Yep, they were from the area, so they're

going to use them up." There you go. And final mention of the VTI. Jump on. Uh, go start your profile.

It's free for life. You'll never pay to have your ranking on the verified trade

index. So, click that QR code, go get your VTI started, and uh, as

verification of the claims, whatever training, certifications, and such that

you have taken, uh, the team will verify all those, and you'll have, uh, you'll

have that live right there on your device. So, I want to thank everybody for the comments today. Don't forget to

like and subscribe our stuff on YouTube, on uh Spotify, wherever you get it,

Facebook, Instagram, wherever you're listening to this right now, plus everywhere else.

Yes, give us some love and from from there, guys, we will chat with you guys

next week. Daniel, thank you as always. Thank you, Paul. We'll see you next week.

We'll talk to you guys later.