The Huddle - Episode 185. Dealing with Difficult Materials: Tips for Installing Challenging Flooring Types

This week on The Huddle, Jose and Daniel take the mic for a real, boots-on-the-ground conversation about installing challenging flooring materials. From unpredictable products to tough site conditions, they break down what makes certain materials difficult — and how installers can approach these jobs with more confidence and less risk.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Flooring materials that consistently cause problems on the job

• Why specs don’t always tell the full story

• Prep and planning tips that reduce mistakes and callbacks

• How to adjust your approach when materials don’t cooperate

• Lessons learned the hard way — so you don’t have to

If you’ve ever walked onto a job and thought “this one’s going to be rough,” this episode is for you. Why This Episode Matters: At The Huddle Podcast, we keep it real. These are the conversations installers actually need — honest, experience-driven insights that help protect your work, your reputation, and your business.

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At The Huddle, we’re all about driving Forward Progress—empowering seasoned installers, contractors, and flooring enthusiasts to grow, innovate, and lead in their craft. Whether you’re looking for real conversations, actionable insights, or inspiration to take your career to the next level, The Huddle is your home for real discussions that matter.

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Please visit our new website! https://thehuddle.team

What's going on everybody? Thank you for joining us uh today on the huddle, your

weekly playbook for all that jazz that Mr. Paul likes to say, but

we're just here to help. Just discussing how we have to actually sit down and

like write something down where when Paul's not here, someone's got to do it,

right? Because if I repeat what Paul says, I'm just pretty much making fun of them to be honest with you. But uh we're

just here to try to help people find success. We don't like failure. Trying to lead people in the right direction

the best we can by sharing our failures and our successes. Um today's episode

we're going to be uh talking about uh issues in as far as uh dealing with

difficult materials uh tips for installing and challenge or for installing challenging flooring types.

Um but before we get started uh we we should probably give a shout out to uh

uh divergent adhesives. Uh, and if you if you haven't seen that video that he

put of that AI thing where the divergent is doing that dance that they have all the babies do, you got to get go over to

the Sunny's Facebook page and check that out. And u if you haven't had the luxury of

using any of their adhesives, I I do advise to give them give them a try. Um,

yeah, they're they're awesome. When we were um doing the last certification, uh

the installers there were like, "What is this adhesive?" Because I want to use this all the time.

Every day is an everyday thing. And not to mention uh a flooring nerd putting a

lot of love into his product. So, thanks Divergent for uh sponsoring

this episode. We always appreciate it. So, you know, we we'll chitchat for a second. Give it

a minute to get a little bit of traction. Um kind of get a list together

of items uh to talk about since our our our typical moderator, Mr. Paul, um is

not here. And you know, we just realize how much we lean on that guy to to get his list of questions down to get

started. Yeah, he is really good at um making sure one, we stay focused, and number

two, just that we have stuff to actually talk about. Yeah. Um,

well, I guess we'll start with a with an easy question about uh is everybody pretty much ready for ties? Whoever's

going? Uh, is and not what, less than a week away. Um,

we'll be heading out. Technically, a week away is when the show actually starts, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Not not arrival time. The education and we will be going live

on Monday. with women in the flooring industry. Um,

kind of moderating that panel. I don't know how much we're actually gonna talk and stuff. And it's not about us that

day. We're just trying to get the word out for them, but we we definitely need you guys to uh to chime in and ask them

the questions that you want to ask. Yeah. You know, we just had a meeting um with panelists the other day and it I

think it's going to be a pretty exciting thing. I think it's an opportunity for for everybody uh to to kind of give u

their two cents in and the subject matter um and to help others who might

need a little bit of guidance. Then also uh big uh trade tap thing

that's going to be I'm pretty sure like Paul's not here to say, but that's what we were talking

about, right? Like as soon as we get on that that show floor thing should be live and everyone should be able to be

um to sign up if you're not on Go Carrera already. Um, it's going to be a

good opportunity to, you know, come find us, get signed up for trade tap and see

exactly where you're at on this uh, this great scale that he's got.

Yeah. And I think we're coming in a little bit early um, this weekend coming up. So, if you guys are around early and

have our information, uh, give us a call, shoot us a text. Yep. We'll be there on Sunday. Um, I

think we get there around 2 or 3 o'clock. Yeah. Yeah, right around then.

So, if you want to take us to dinner, let us know. We're all about that. Daong

at the Arya is where you can take us. That place is delicious.

And then, um, also Live Switch. Uh, when Paul used this, he

said that, you know, his estimate was within a few hundred dollars of what AI

said it was supposed to be. you know, besides me navigating that

website, I think that we also need to jump on there and get Well, Paul said he was going to do um

a demonstration. A demonstration. Yeah. So, we'll we'll we'll wait for Paul to do that, but

you guys should navigate that that website. It's uh it's one of those items that is definitely a game changer, man.

It's going to change so much along with every everything else that's evolving. Well, AI is changing the game on

everything. And you know, in we have a a Monday morning meeting every week and

talking to the guys and that's what we told them. It's like if um if you are dealing with these tricky materials,

it's not a bad idea to take a picture, take some video, ask AI and see what it

it says. Uh is going to be there next week.

What's up? How you doing, brother? I think he's doing demonstrations at the CFI booth

with some tricky materials. Yeah, that guy's always busy down there, man. Oh, I I get it. I get it. We are,

too. Just in different ways. Yeah, we're not just in one place. We're everywhere trying to do everything. He's

at least he's centrally located, right? I got a demonstration here at this time.

We'll be walking around taking video. So, if you guys want some good Mexican food, Javier at the Arya is really good,

too. So, we can go do that. I go to Vegas to get fat, guys.

Daniel doesn't have a hard time dealing with difficult places to eat down there.

He's uh he's made a a list. He's checking these places off. So

if you need a food uh information, get with Daniel. But um let's go let's get

slide right back into this topic because you had mentioned something a second ago about AI. Um, and you're right, the

progression of AI and then helping others, um, from the technical

standpoint of dealing with difficult materials, um, utilizing AI to

ask questions and get answers um, is changing everything, right? Like

I know that Ken Balon has that, um, Balon knows best. Balon knows best. that is kind of uh AI

centric, right? But I know that that's evolved quite a bit too. It is going to keep getting smarter and smarter and

there's some changes I believe recently uh to that. But it doesn't really give you the hands-on

experience and and and maybe we can look at both sides of that uh the the

information superighway if you will with AI assistance and then the the hands-on

Um I guess two different aspects of of and how to approach

how to approach that. Um so just speaking about difficult material in general, I want I kind of

want to start off with just talking about what the thing that they claim is,

you know, DIY friendly and that's the the click flooring, right? The LBTS. Everyone LVPs, everyone is is doing

them. They say that, you know, homeowners can do them. And I'll be honest, it's one of those things where I

just I don't excel at. Um

I think it's because it takes a level of patience, but the it's crazy, right?

Because you patient other things, but that's a tile format, a plank format. It

should be going fast, right? Like maybe that's the the mindset. it makes it more difficult. But, uh, DIYers are probably

going a little bit slower. They're afraid of messing up. I will I will say that it is very particular, especially

some of the SPCs and the locking mechanisms. And well, it's just knowing that sometimes

you're not going to get that to go in there and you got to cut that locking mechanism off and just glue some stuff

in. Yeah, I think that that was where where I kind of made that turn and it's like, all

right, I'm just going to cut this off and glue it because I'm not I'll be fighting this forever.

You know what? The first time that I tried to show Jeremy that trick, I ended up cutting my knuckle off and uh with a

utility knife, but I didn't I didn't flinch. I cut it off. I let it fall wherever it went. put

a put a rag around my finger and then kept showing him while he was freaking out and then he then he returned it back

to me when he found it later on. Um, but yeah, there's just

there's a fine line between DIY and having trouble shooting abilities and understanding product to where

you know what you can and cannot do as far as manipulating the material or product and and how to get it into place

the right way so it's seated. Um, that's a that's a really good example of u

of not what is not a standard trick for DIY. I guess I've never really seen a video

uh on that either. It's just one of those things that someone has mentioned

and you like, hey, you know what? This is what they said to do. And then you try it. So, you still go on

some of those the flooring pages on Facebook, you know, and they're still talking about how far back do I have to

to remove this in order to do a repair, right? And it's like just cut it out.

And those are things that you don't know unless you do it all the time, right? Is

one plank. If that's all that you need to replace, you can do that, right? And that that's I'm just the the

main reason I wanted to bring that up was because sometimes it's not even it's the easy m the easy material that can

still be difficult, right? Because I mean even with carpet, we've worked with carpet that's super inexpensive that is

ridiculously hard to seam up and you can't run a road to save your life. But then you get on some of this super um

expensive carpet, the stuff that be working with on a daily basis, right? And that is meant to use your knife. You

got to cut it from the back. There is no row cutting, right? It's it's one of

those difficult materials to work with, right? But it's still easier to follow a

row than the inexpensive stuff.

Yes, you're right. I think early on we found that the

more cost effective the material, more cost efficient the material, the harder

it is to work with in most cases, not all. The higher grade material that

costs more money, they put a little more love into that one.

Um, makes it easier to work with, that's for sure. handle says a lot of the LVP installers are having problem with

manufacturer tolerances from what he's heard and I've sat through

a seminar about the tolerances that you know manufacturers have and it is

sometimes a little bit ridiculous like I can't you you'd be surprised how much

it's able to shrink and grow and still be within their guidelines but it is and

I mean that's Why? You know, you have to read those instructions

because one manufacturer, even though it's they market it as the same exact

material, right? It's not always apples to apples and then one manufacturer will

be like quarter inch um perimeter gap. The other one will be a half inch. So, you just have to to be aware that it's

even though it's the same type of material, it's not all constructed of the same material.

Yeah, same raw materials. Yeah, plus or minus some raw materials changes uh uh the limit limitations and

what's acceptable. Um, and you know, it to go back to what Kendall said about

the um about the tolerances, it's uh a lot of the tolerances to be honest are

very hard to meet if you're looking at a overall project. And a lot of the

tolerances, some of the installers don't know them until something's gone wrong.

So advise you to uh pick up a book or open

up your phone and do a little bit of reading and and a simple Google search will actually bring you pretty close to

the right place. Um otherwise manufacturer specs going right to the to the manufacturer's

website and seeing what they have in there. Right. And the that's the thing is you always want to do that because

we've talked before about how the website has one set of instructions, the bucket or the paper has another set and

it's like which ones do you follow? And you want to kind of think that the ones on the

website are are static, right? So they can be updated on the fly and those are

the right ones. But if you're ever in question, there's technical numbers to

to call to to help you out with that. So, um, off offhand, D, do do you can

you think about any products that like through your career that you've had issues working with and you've needed

some help or or some guidance at some point where you're just like, I can't figure it out and just

Well, I want to get to Kendall's question real quick about um tolerances of floor leveling and then

we'll talk about the materials that I've had issues with. Um, so as far as floor

leveling, we call it we want to get it flat, right? Not level because sometimes level

is out of the question. It's misleading actually to to some people who are very literal,

right? And when you when you're looking at those tolerances, it's that's why they have, you know, the 316 of an inch

and 10 foot, right? because it gives you that window in order to to to bridge and

you do you have to be within those or else you're you're liable. And are is it a little ridiculous sometimes? Yeah. Can

you get away with a little bit more? Probably. But it's all in what you're trying to your risk factor.

Yeah. You don't want to be at that threshold of tolerance right at

the 10 feet. You kind of want to spread it out a little bit the best you can.

Knock down some high spots. Alleviate some of those peaks, fill in some of the

valleys. Depending on what substrate you're working with, you got to bring it as close as possible.

So he's saying that there the tolerances are so small that it seems like the manufacturer is just setting us up to

fail and the customer is going to start griping about something.

Well, they have the same information that we have, right? So depending on what's going on and and say there is a

failure and somebody does make a phone call and calls an inspector um whether it's the the client or the manufacturer

or the installer um I don't I don't think that information is typically shared between

everybody all at once. It is only it if you're the one who called and

you're paying for it and you're you're privileged with that information. You're not required to share any of it. Um,

so if the homeowner wants to figure it out and find out why why it's failing as

well, they can hire their their own or same thing with the installer to protect yourself. But make sure you did

everything right. Make sure you did everything right. I mean, the the tolerance are are there

for a reason. And when we're talking about the clicking the click lock floors in

general, it's because they're they're there because, you know, the thinner you get, the less of a locking mechanism you

got to connect together. You know, um, Andy Williams talks about this all the time and it's like when you're have that

five millimeter SPC that you're working with and I mean you're talking in that

locking mechanism, what is it maybe a millimeter that is actually the only body that you're connecting to?

Yeah. I mean, let's just call that portion. I don't know if you want to even call that one a

locking mechanism because it's more of a a a setting in there dropping in to make

sure it's seated, right? But there's different types. But yeah, if we're looking at like the 4.5 or five

millimeter um SPC, then that stuff is very particular. And I will say that

even if you do have really good floor fat flatness that you make sure you're lined up good.

Like Brian makes a good point here. You know that and we're banking on it being on

concrete. A lot of it over here in Michigan, Brian, I don't know where you're located, but it's on we're doing

it on wood, right? We got basements over here. But um commercially that's what

that's the fight that we have is the the separation between division three and

division 9. It's everything could be within their tolerances, but once that

concrete starts moving, it's going to do whatever it wants. Yeah. It's like a moisture test, right?

You know, at the time of uh of install, we were within our tolerance, right? what it does after that.

They have a window where they go in there and measure everything and everything looks great. But I mean, I

have been on projects where you can you can feel the height difference just

walking around. And that's where I say, you know, when you're when you're walking somewhere and you trip, it's

sometimes it's it's just a hump in the floor and you don't realize it, right? And but you're looking at probably a half inch sometimes. And I have seen

some concrete companies go in there and grind for an entire week straight

because there are some tolerances and

you just know that yeah, this was not as good as you said it was. Working conditions are are really uh

really brutal on on the overall finish of the concrete, too. Um, you know, you

can't if you fart on one side of the the concrete, it might be a little bit warmer, cause some curling. I don't

know. It's very particular. I'm not a concrete guy, so I can only speculate.

Um, is watching on uh Instagram right now.

He says he loves us. Zeke Zeke, Big Poppy, that's what we

call him. But um to get back to your question about you know the what

I think it's more than just one material because throughout my career I've hated

multiple materials and the one that I hated the most I actually ended up being the best at for I don't know how that

happened but I did I hated sheet vinyl to begin with and there are plenty of guys that will be right there you know

on my side like yeah we hate it we hate There's

you don't get away with anything. No. No. It's um

it's hard sometimes. Yeah. And so that that's where I started

out hating that. Right. And then um I started getting better at that. And

then that's the thing, the more you work with something and the more training you

do on something, even if it's training yourself, right, practicing, the easier it gets. And then it's not one of those

difficult materials. And now I started getting better at that. And broad them

carpet was my enemy. You know what? I think I think the first

time you work with any specific piece that you're not comfortable with is is uh classified as difficult and you know

you started with your I'm going to start with the carpet. Um, I would say that

getting into like the larger open areas of pattern match broadloom, that was

difficult because zero zero formal training at the time and um,

you know, it would when and everything that I learned I tried to apply, but like when we worked for other companies

and going and helping other crews out, you know, you respect the crew leader. and you you do things as as as they're

instructing and you try to work it out and try to help out. But uh when you when you don't see eye to eye in the

technique or the direction on what you're trying to do, it makes life a lot harder when you put yourself in a

scenario. Whereas a first time first time scenario in a large project

that it's a guess what it's in the adhesive we don't have very much time before it lives there. Um, so I would

say uh and I'm talking like some one inch pattern match with tufted rows

where there is no there is no hiding. You're going to see a squiggle a

squiggle. You're going to see the any dip in zipper look like it goes all Yep. that you know you can see the

angles and you know the length but not only that you have other directions. You can see all these different angles, but

wide open room, every dip at the column or the footing, you know, and trying to get the lines perfect there. I mean,

there's a lot that was involved, but I will say that uh, you know, when Mr. Mr.

Dave Baron's helped out a lot when we worked at Superior going through a lot of those, um, and him willing to take

the time to explain his thought process through some of it

really helped turn it into my own. um and I would say without without that

type of leadership right there where he understands the material and he was CFI back then, right? So he had already been

through the the training and certification um and to not understand the importance of the

of being educated back then versus uh having him show me which he was the owner of uh the flooring company we

worked for at the time. Um, I just like learning from another

installer hands-on and it was it was it was uh great to have someone with his knowledge kind of in the back pocket, so

to speak. Because he was available there whenever you had a technical question and just like me, you call me and say,

"Hey, I need some help on this job." I love getting out of the office and getting out there. Body can't really do what I used to do, but the brain still

works. Brain still works. Yeah, brain still works. We can explain how to do everything. It's just and we can do it right maybe

for like a couple days but

broken body is a broken body. Yeah. Um, just touching back real quick

because Kendall did comment, um, he doesn't understand how commercial guys

protect ourselves because that's why he he sticks to carpet and

even though he knows some of this other stuff pays better, but I mean that's where your comfort zone is. That's where

you live. But then you also have to realize where growth starts and that's out of your comfort zone, right? So

that's that's the the take I have on it is once you start looking at okay well let me branch out and do these things

that um we don't necessarily always do that's when you start learning right and

that's where the research comes in on you know trying to make sure that you're

you have yourself covered or contacting one of us to go through that. I mean,

we're working with one of the bigger companies in the area right now um on a

project and that's all because they don't have that the insight that we do

on resilient. So there's times where

that is necessary. Yeah. And and just to add to that too, Kendall,

you said, "How do we protect ourselves?" Right. Um, well, as a matter of fact, the same

way that you're trying to protect yourself because we just had a conversation before the podcast started.

Um, and you know, and and hopefully schedule allows, but I'll meet you on a commercial project tomorrow. We're going

to look at it and we'll talk about it. And that's that's the beginning of protecting yourself is by understanding

where you fall short and where someone else might excel and and being vulnerable and making that phone call

and saying, "Hey, how do I do this? what do I look at? Right? That that's the first step um in protecting yourself

because now you're you are openly asking for information for you to lock in that memory bank. The only difference is for

us, we have a little bit of paperwork and a paper trail that we have to create

and documentation that we have learned over the years that we have to uh uh

make sure that we have um readily available at all times. That's how we

protect oursel um and by

making sure that we openly present um potential failures

uh to the right people and have literature backing it up. I mean there's

a lot to it. It seems like there's a lot to it, but it becomes really it becomes pretty standard uh the more you practice

it. Uh and I think text message and emails, anything, any

documentation, pictures, notes, videos, videos. Yeah. Like all of that stuff is

all very important and and that's why we we document every project. We have notes

for every project. Um, you know, are we missing some notes on some projects? Uh, we we might be we

might not have everything accurate. Yeah. Accurate documentation is key

and having the right documentation is even is paramount. Like if you walk into

a place and and and you have experience and you've seen certain failures or you kind of see the writing on the wall and

the project is hurry rush rush rush like we need this done by this date. You don't have a choice.

that's going to raise a red flag and you're going to make sure that you are

bringing all the right paperwork and all the right questions to the table. Um, and when I say questions, they might be

formatted in a manner that they give you the answer versus you giving them your answer. Um,

I don't want to sound like that's like a devious way to go about it, but you know what? What if it fails because

we're hurrying up? What if this product isn't backed by the manufacturer because

you're asking me to do this? What happens then? Like, and sometimes, I

mean, I've been on the other side of that, too, where it's like I'm not even asking these questions. I'm just straight up being like, "No, it's not

happening." That is that is um that comes from practice,

though. that comes from already being there and knowing where it's going to go. Doyo says that company cam is his go-to

for documentation. Um we had floor detective um David on here,

David Zack not long ago and his um software also has a photo feature.

Um I just seen comment. Oh, go Carrera has that. And I'm sure

that's going to be adapted over into the trade tab, right? Where it's you're documenting everything. It's not a

matter of should I take a picture. It's when I get the site, I'm taking pictures. Taking pictures midway through

the day. Taking pictures at the end of the day. That way you have timestamps on things that are

happening. It'll save you. I know. like we we know firsthand how important this

is. We're not we we've been on it where you know we didn't document and we've

gotten burned and then we learn. So then we overdo and then people are like why

are you why you keep on emailing me this stuff? It's like not happening again.

You don't you don't have to respond to it. Just just log this information. Um,

you know, and you know, documentation doesn't always have to be because of a failure. It can be because uh something

didn't go quite right on a project and the owner's uh something of the owners

got damaged. Um, and and I'll I'll bring one up as if we did a medical building

and the owner uh collected um I don't know what they call them like mobiles

and you know we're complete with the project and we have completion pictures and he's like hey just letting you know

you guys broke this and this is what it cost and and you know I'm I did my best

to be sympathetic right I don't know so I went back through all the pictures and upon our completion pictures I noticed

that it was still hanging um and intact

and he he didn't want to believe that his employees

when moving things back didn't tell him anything. But I just I didn't say it like that. I just said, "Look, here you

go. This is our last picture of this area. We're we're complete. We're clean up. And look what's look what's hanging

there." Um I I I sympathize with them. I really did. But you know that picture

that picture's worth a thousand words like and some of them might have bite cuss words but it's okay it happens.

Has floor detective too and you know the tools are you have to make it a

habit and it's even us and you know our employees it's

having to we talk about it all the time and then things don't happen and it's like halfway through the day it's like

update let me get an update. things have to keep on coming through.

Yep. And then uh yeah, then what does it say? When I'm on a

commercial inspection with glue oozen at the seams, you better hope you have documented uh the moisture testing

properly if you end up in a lawsuit. And

yeah, I mean depending on the type of project and if it goes that far through litigation and all that, yeah, you you you better hope that you have it there.

And u there's a lot of gray area when it comes to moisture testing, right? Um

that's banking on it being moisture. It could be, you know, adhesive emulsification.

Um because plasticizer migration, right? It could be a number of things, but it's

not always just one thing, right? It could be a combination of all those

things at the same time. You know, and I I will add to that, too. And if you're an installer labor only

and you're kind of going into a project um for for another for another company and don't be afraid to ask if they have

moisture tests or to look at the results, right? Um I think uh we we had

a project fail due to moisture a few years ago and it was it failed because

of a team effort. Um it was um it wasn't moisture, it was an adhesive

issue. Was it an adhesive issue? Well, I was told it was a moisture issue, but I guess it was it could have been one of

four things. Um but at the end of the day, we found out that

the contractor was supposed to perform a moisture test, but they deferred that to the flooring uh company that was hired.

Um which gave them literature back saying that they're not going to do it. They put it back on them. And there was a lot of a lot of that. So, uh,

everybody kind of just said, "Wasn't my fault."

But we went back and redid the install and everything looks good.

Yeah, we did switch adhesives. That's unfortunate, but it happens.

And um was that one of the times where we used

one manufacturer for the material and then a universal just like a universal adhesive. Yep.

So we went back in with the manufacturer recommended adhesive and have not had a

call back. And that's where transitioning from I mean this it's been

years now but from solvent to waterbased adhesives and the the changes in science

since that became a thing and understanding the the difference in backings and and some of the recycled

backings and what's compatible and what isn't. That is um

that is one of the difficulties with all materials is making sure that you're

um your information is current. And you said that earlier, Daniel, and uh

knowing the right people or having having the right phone numbers and and understanding

it's okay to call somebody to make sure. Please don't feel dumb. Please like,

please don't feel dumb. just call somebody, make sure I know I get I mean I'm pretty sure you

get questions all the time, too. It's And it's not even a call. It's a lot of times it's a a Facebook message. Hey,

got a question. Yeah. Yeah. This is And it's

really hate to see anybody fail because they were too proud to make a fivem

minute phone call. Um it's not worth it. Just just make that phone call, you

know. Well, and if you're if you're close enough, it might turn into having tacos one day at a restaurant.

We're always looking for a reason to go have tacos, I'll be honest. And that's that's the thing is with

these difficult materials, right? You can you have those res resources at your fingertips literally like boom, Facebook

message, you're getting answers. Um, again, it's what you were saying

earlier. It's not the same as a hands-on thing, but at least you have that information. Um, a lot of the guys that

are scared of doing sheet vinyl, it's typically only because the heat

weld portion, right? But really, I'm more worried about them getting the

seams right than I am about the heat weld portion. Yeah. I think the the heat weld portion

is like I understand not being afraid to burn, right? Not working with it very

often, but the steps and the process to get to the welding point is more

difficult than the welding once you get going. Um, you can you can have a good

weld on a bad seam, but if you have a bad seam underneath the weld,

that's just one of those failure points. And that's one of the difficult things to

I don't want to say it's difficult to teach. It's not difficult to teach, but it's difficult to understand why if you're not willing to put in the time

and ask the questions. Doyo says he doesn't know why the

installer would push back. And at this point, it wasn't because we were the installer. It was actually the flooring

contractor who hired us. Right? There's a lot of back and forth. So he says get

certified to do the testing with an understanding there is a charge or have a person in your contacts 100%. Um so

or you know get set up with a system where there's no ifs ands or buts and that's where we have climate right

because um as soon as we got that I started just when they asked for

moisture testing I'm like I'll do it. You want to know why? because I can't manipulate

the readings. The readings are what they are. And not only that, it it adds value.

Yeah. And I can keep track of sites. I've been on, you know, I've had sites where

um the temperature starts falling and it's like, "Hey guys, what is going on?"

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We We'll get that under control. But it's eyes on the project.

You're getting alerts. So, get get yourself set up for success that way.

And yeah, get certified for moisture testing. There's um I've had, you know, people ask me about it and it

is it an investment. Yeah, I think the class is I don't know, pushing $1,000 or

something. I couldn't even tell you. It's like a three-day class, right? The last time we did it, you got to get certified every four

years. four or five years, but it's been u

we put in quite a few moisture tests throughout those four or five years.

Yeah. And and you know, and it's it's not difficult

to perform the test. It's just understanding how to do it. It and it could be classified as a

let's say not dealing with difficult materials, right? Let's say a difficult situations because it could be

technical, it could be materials, but once you learn it and understand it and

and do just say you do your first test, the second one is super easy. The third

one you're like, "Oh man, this is this isn't really that bad." But then you start refining your documentation

process. And then, you know, we found um we use our our measure program to kind

of locate allocate and then climate came out. Um and that was just

that one made it hard to not use because of the technology and what it offered.

um third party information is is hard to uh discount when you have

to sit at the same table with the contractors and the owners saying this is why we can't do it. Your literature

states this, these are the readings we're getting. These are the recommendations. The manufacturers's

literature states this. We're not aligned.

Says the flooring company's got to do better. part of the recipe of a very successful install. And I think the one

of the issues that you run into when you're testing for your own stuff is if it does come back high and

you sell them, it's like trying to upsell, right? But what a lot of people don't realize

is that I don't want to do any anything with the moisture. I want to just install

like when it comes to this stuff. Just I don't want these ratings to come back high. I'm not trying to

add a bunch of money on because a lot of the money that goes into it is in the product.

Um, it's really heartbreaking when you have to when you go to what seems to be

like a small simple residential project and then you find moisture issues or

when you're doing a very large project for a nonprofit who is on a strict

budget. and you get into the removal and and you

find moisture issues like we don't want to deal with that. Nobody does. Nobody

want it's just so much easier to go there, do the rip, get the prep done, do the install, and move on. Um, but

unfortunately, they have a process for a reason, and you should do your best to

honor that, right? And I I think some of the the harder materials too that we don't

really work with like hands-on um on a regular basis,

but just hard tile in general, but the the large format, it's like you're

looking at like Paul was saying um a couple weeks ago that he's he was dealing with some

um porcelain panels that were what what did he say? Three foot by 10 foot or something like that.

Uh, it was a ridiculous size. But whenever somebody says something like those formats like that, all of like I

would have to have like a Mission Impossible set up to where we're dropping the tiles and through like a robotic arm or something. I can't

imagine the amount of stress it puts on someone or a company or what technology they

need to to utilize or equipment to make sure that they're Man, that's got to be

such a flat floor. It's got to be such a flat substrate, man. You got to be super confident. Get

everything good, right? And you're talking, you know, these this 316 and 10 foot and some of

these big panels are stricter tolerances than that,

right? And like maybe vertical, I don't I don't know. But maybe the vertical is

easier than than the the floor, but still then you're trusting a lot of

other people to make sure that they're within your tolerance. Well, just that in the equipment itself

that goes that you have to use, right? I' I mean, I think it's nice that I've

seen these videos on Facebook that have the the right tools and you're like, "Oh, that's pretty sweet." But then you

see these other videos where it's like they're rigging stuff up and then

um sometimes it goes great, other times not. But at least they're documenting it so I can see what works and what

doesn't. Nope.

Doing residential. Are we doing rollon vapor barrier or

poly? And I think again I'm going to refer to manufacturers specifications

um because I I've dealt with some manufacturers that require one and others that require the other.

Yeah, I think um going that route to start with that as a foundation is probably the best the best

way. Um obviously if there is if you're walking the

project and you see that there is a potential um moisture issue then

you got to bring it up. You got to talk about it. And most of the time uh you know the concrete will will tell you a

story. The the walls will tell you a story. And you might get some information from um from the homeowner

as well about this has backed up x x amount of times in the past few years.

Um you know or if you're on a development and uh in the basement below

grade but you notice that there's a big hill and there's a runoff aiming towards

that development, you know, and you find out like, oh, what is what is also when you dig outside? What are you digging

into? You dig into sand, clay, dirt? like all questions may and maybe I don't

know maybe it's not normal that I ask those questions but I try to factor

everything when walking a job I do take it a ridiculous amount of notes through a walkth through

always can't help it I think he was just referring to like with the click lock what what we're

using as a vapor barrier not necessarily if any moisture is if there's any

moisture issues at the time just in general. And I was just sharing the information

as far as what I try to factor in if you're looking at something beyond what

manufacturer specs are. Um if you happen to find something or notice anything.

So, um, manufacturers are saying that poly

is now required under SPC, which is crazy because that can trap a

lot of moisture. Um, yeah. And I'm assuming that's below

grade on concrete. All right. Or or are we talking uh above

grade on concrete as well? Kelly says, "Better to be thorough," and

that's 100%. That's why we always refer to the manufacturer's uh

recommendations because if we don't do it the way that they say it has to be done, then it's our fault.

Yep. If they tell you this to stand on one foot, touch your nose, stick your arm

out, and point south when you're installing uh east and west uh and chant something, just follow it. Just do it.

It's part of the the instructions. There's got to be a reason. It must have been tested that way

over a con concrete substrate. Most don't specify. You're right. some of

them. Um, I was I forget who I was talking to, but

they were talking about a bunch of plank that was failing

um from someone else in town

and it was because the manufacturer did not specify to use any

vapor retarder at all. Things started failing. Then they're

like, "Oh, you didn't use a vapor retarder." But nothing was in documentation saying that they had to use it.

So, I I sent some information to to a friend of mine uh a couple weeks ago,

and first off, for DIYers, some of the actual manufacturer specifications are

extremely difficult to find when you're purchasing from a big box store. Um,

right? Like, some of them are very hard to find. Uh, so you have to kind of cross reference the material and and

find out who the actual manufacturer is if it's a white box um or a private

label. But we did find it and the instructions were a little

contradicting. It said that it does not need it below grade over concrete. But then there was another line um

uh in in the instructions, installation instructions versus the warranty uh

information. I don't recall which one it was in, but one said you don't need it. The other one said you must install over

concrete below grade. So, and that was in the same document.

Um so, copy and paste. Yeah. Yeah.

Where we at, Mr. What's Kendall saying here? Oh, that wool job that you guys did. Um

Oh, yeah. And you know what? That's like uh I know I talked about that a little bit ago with you today, too. Is uh one

of those things where you say, "Yes, I've done I've worked with it." And then um as soon as we he

seen the product, you know, he didn't say it there on site, but we were we were leaving and he was like, "Man, I'm

going to need some help with that one." He's like, "It's as I I it's been a while since I've done anything like

that, but I'm not familiar with the instructions." Right. Um and it just

not being comfortable. And I think that's when Kendall found out

that that that I I do carpet, not just uh resilient. It's like it's like, "Yeah, I'll plan on coming out and

helping you." He's like, "You like how are you going to help me?" I'm like, "Well, be because I'm just going

to come and help you." Like that's what I do. And it was actually nice to get out and work

work with him and see how somebody else works. But he got he got the hang of it right away. Like it was a matter of

walking through it and explaining it versus uh you know explaining it in in a manner in which he understood and we

made both made sure we understood each other um instead of reading a document. And then once he he was like I can see

locked in boom didn't need me anymore. Right. Doyle says below on grade it's going to condensate underneath

regardless. And 100% at some point, especially up

here in Michigan where you're going to have that it's going to be super cold like what is

it outside right now? 14 degrees. Yesterday was like nine or something like that. And then

in that basement it's going to want to do something. Yeah.

Material region specific about you. Yeah. Right. You had it under control

pretty quick. But I That's the thing with directions,

too, right? Because you can interpret it differently, too.

And that's why it's not a bad idea to have multiple eyes on something so that

way nothing gets lost in translation. Well, I think it says this. No, I'm pretty sure it's over here.

I don't envy your weather,

man. Or like I keep on I don't want to move to Texas, but I I want to move to somewhere warm.

I will say, you know, I don't I don't want to like the weather here, but my

very first time ever going to Texas. I went down there for it to to play in a, you know, a very large softball

tournament, you know, a few hundred teams. And I've never been burned as bad

as I was when I went to Texas. I went down there, took my shirt off, hung out in the sun for like three hours. Dude, I

peeled three times. So, I don't envy your weather at all either.

He says, says it's the perfect place. I don't know, man. I'm more partial to Mexico, but also I got super burnt there

the last time, too. So, sensitive skin.

Perfect place for floors, not just perfect. Yeah.

What about you guys? I know we're running close on time, but do you guys anybody out there have a material that

put them in a in a in a position to either call in some help or throw their

hands up in the air or walk away? I will tell you what, man. Going through the NFIC certification, I realized that

my fingers are not meant for sewing. Um,

yes, that uh that does take some toughening up

just doing that. What was it? Two foot seam and then that the cross seam. Man,

my fingers were burning. Then you got the professionals over there bringing their stuff. They got the

the palm pad and they're doing this. I'm like, man, that's got experience. Give me a heads

up. Yeah, that's called experience. Like Yeah, that's the same way when we tell

people, you know, we roll up to a job site with $20,000 in a toolbox just for vinyl, just for heat welding.

Yeah. There's a there's a tool for everything. It's about making life easier. That's

what they're made for, right? And I think really the the the

overall thing when we're talking about um working with materials that are are

harder um is that it becomes easy with experience.

Once you start getting experience in anything I mean you are a novice at some point right I wasn't like I said I I

hated sheep item there was a turning point don't know when it was. I just ended up it it's

just one of those things that just starts clicking and then once you un have an understanding of it it's when

it's like all right this isn't as challenging going into forbo right and

just being shown the tricks that um they do with do it like this don't do

it like that you know um pre- roll the material the other way give it a those

crunches you're pre-stretching things you're pre-shrinking things It's knowing what you're working with and

going through this training is really the biggest ticket. And that's where I

think um Trade Tap is going to shine because you're not going to have to go and searching for

for all of these trainings anymore. They're going to be right on your phone,

right in the app. just go on there, see what's available, see

and I think, if I'm not mistaken, he said it was going to kind of be catered to you because you're going to get your

your BTI and then it's going to say, "Hey, if you want to move up, this is kind of where you should be going."

It helps it helps you create a path for yourself, too. And hey, some people are on multiple

paths, and that's okay. So I I'm I'm kind of excited to see what

the the future that it that holds. But that I think that's the overarching

thing. It's man there is a lot of difficult materials and once um I mean just

through it flooring right I was talking to Dwayne the other day about a project and he was like you know how long would

it take? I said, "Honestly, with this many guys, it'll probably take, you know, only this long." And he was like,

"No way." I said, "Yeah." And I mean, even one of the projects we did over here um downtown Grand Rapids,

uh they were like, "This stuff has to get done." And I was like, "Dude, empty the area.

I'll have it done in two or three days." And we did with two two three people. it

was done. It doesn't take long once you have a system, but it's the hard part is

getting that experience to get that system put in place. Yep. And that's where

getting started like the hardest part, right? Like a game plan game plan all you want. I

promise you that if you sit there and there's a proper amount of time to game plan, but if you're game planning based

off of all of the things that could go wrong, man, you just got to get started and

find out how many things are going to go right once you get started. It's just

sometimes you got to dive in and then trust the process,

right? I'm gonna put this link in the comments.

What is trade tap? So, I know a lot of guys are watching on their phone probably, so they can't scan

the QR code, so I'm going to put it in the chat. They can screenshot it and then look at get bring it up later. Um,

but Trade Tap is what Go Carrera um is rebranding to. So, it's

not only are they switching um the name, but they're also switching

basically everything from the ground up. It's they're they're taking what they've learned so far, revamping it, and then

given a new formula, right? a new formula for how

they tell you exactly where you're at and then the path that you should go um to

get more training because we always say that there's a labor shortage. But I I always chime in

with I don't think it's a labor shortage. It's a qualified labor shortage because if a lot of these guys

would actually get some training and um put themselves out there to be

better, we'd be in a lot better place. I mean, well, and and essentially what it does

is it gives you um I don't want to say rank ranking or grading, right? But, you

know, there there's a certain level of installer that you need for specific materials. Um, you know, and as you get

to the more difficult uh installations and techniques, you're going to need a higher level installer. And what this

does is this helps cater to some of that. It it it it brings awareness to a skill set that an

individual or a company might have. Uh so that way you are that way you are doing your best to

present the end user or the client. uh the the higher chances of long-term success for the installation and

creating that long-term value is very important um for retaining repeat

customers, clients uh rather um and and maybe building a name for yourself uh

with some some higherend builders. Um, you know, it it sets a it sets you apart as an

individual, as an installer and a skill set, and it helps create the the start

of setting yourself apart through the offerings and the information that is uh

in there as well. This third party verified, I believe. Um,

so Jorge says that experience is key. going through the the motions, failing, then succeeding, finding the way, then

just slamming it down. And the that's why we're called the huddle. We reference everything to being in sports

because that's what we do. And it is it's you learn more from your losses

than you do your wins, right? Because when you're winning, everything is great, but when when you lose, it's like, what do I need to do in order to

not feel like this again? Yeah. Why did I win? Because I did all

of this. I prepped for all of this. Why did I lose?

Because I didn't prep properly, right? I didn't cross my tees and dot my

eyes. I didn't scrape the adhesive. I didn't Google or ask chat GPT how I should be

um traveling my uh mortar on. Right. I

didn't I didn't call hard hat and ask him for pointers,

but uh we are at time right now.

And uh we are less than a week away from being in Las Vegas. So if you are not

signed up, make sure you get signed up. I don't know if there I'll be honest with you, I don't know if there's any

coupon codes anymore that are active. Um, I have been getting some emails from

some of the the vendors that are going to be there um with their coupon codes. So, pay

attention to your email to see what's uh what's going on with that. But, we'd love to see you. We'd love to um you

know, hang out with you after the events uh on the show floor. But the big thing

is is getting out there and networking and seeing what um what it's all about.

Yeah. Create an itinerary. And and don't forget to come see the huddle guys at Ties. Let's go. Less than a week away.

Less than a week away. And another shout out to uh Divergent Adhesives. Thanks again for sponsoring this episode.

Man, I wish we could play his little skit. I wish we could play his little thing as a as as an exit. Um

u maybe next time. Uh we will uh see you guys in Vegas.